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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Puzzle time - sums of two squares

Puzzle time - sums of two squares

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  • jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nycJ Online
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    On average, how many ways are there to write a positive number n as the sum of two squares?

    In other words, suppose n is a random integer between 1 and a zillion.  What is the expected number of ordered pairs (i,j) of integers such that n = i^2+j ^2 ? For example, if n = 25 we get not only 25 = 0^2 + 5^2 and 25 = 3^2 + 4^2, but also 25 = 5^2 + 0^2 = 3^2 + (-4)2 etc., twelve ways in all.

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nyc
      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
      #2

      HINT:

      Let f(n) be the number of ways to write n as the sum of two squares. Then the average of f(n) for n = 1,2,...,Z is T/n where T is the total number of integer pairs (i,j) for which i^2 + j^2 is at most Z. What do these pairs (i,j) look like as Cartesian coordinates on the plane?

      Only non-witches get due process.

      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by Horace
        #3

        Missed this one the first time. So you're looking for the number of pairs of integers lying on the circle of radius sqrt(n) since a^2 + b^2 is distance from origin squared. The problem then becomes the number of times that circle passes through a point composed of two integers. By symmetry and restriction to positive integers you would only look at one eighth of the circle. Average number of times of an unbounded n implies this number does not increase without limit, and may be cyclical. I suspect the problem can be solved brute force by observing this cycle or this limit, but there is probably an elegant way to consider how many times this circle passes through integer vertexes.

        Actually I suppose the problem is asking for a function of n rather than a specific number. So it then becomes the number of times a circular arc of length (pi * 2 * sqrt(n))/8 passes through integer points on the plane.

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Really we're looking for the expected value across all the integers from 1 to a zillion.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • KlausK Online
            KlausK Online
            Klaus
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            1d0126cc-405a-45be-a086-6e37ae73f017-image.png

            Hm, that number looks pretty familiar. A favorite of Larry's in fact.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nycJ Online
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Yes, by way of that hint, this one collapses into the Gauss Circle Problem.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              1 Reply Last reply
              • Doctor PhibesD Online
                Doctor PhibesD Online
                Doctor Phibes
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Klaus and Jon doing math.

                The sums of two squares.

                I was only joking

                1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  It’s kind of a cool result. It’s framed as a kind of number theory problem and the answer is a transcendental number associated with geometry.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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                  • HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    It is a cool result. But I'm not sure there's any low-math, non-brute-force way to get there. The connection between sum of squares and a circle is not very far towards the answer.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Unless you recognize it as the Gauss Circle Problem, which has a well-known answer.

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        And I would add an intuitive answer.

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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                        • HoraceH Offline
                          HoraceH Offline
                          Horace
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Yeah I guess the area thing would be intuitive and from there the circumference thing is also intuitive.

                          Education is extremely important.

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