Ivermectin. Again.
-
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Like Weinstein said, the problem with "trust the science" is the "the" qualifier.
That's true, but I must say that my appreciation of B. Weinstein has lessened quite a bit during COVID.
Why? Asking goofy, ridiculous questions is a shitload more scientific than refusing to question findings or political statements. And he's not at all wrong about the problem with "trust the science."
All scientific findings should be questioned, especially if there's reason to do so. But there's a difference between healthy skepticism and full-blown conspiracy theories. The difference is that in the former case you ask critical questions and are open to new evidence and adapt your position correspondingly, whereas in the latter case you shoehorn all evidence into a fixed predetermined model of reality. My impression of him was that he was doing the latter and not the former.
I keep listening to his podcast. I don't hear him doing that. The closest he seems to get is in claiming (with anecdotal evidence only, but at least it's not baseless) that there is a coordinated effort to suppress research into ivermectin effectiveness against Sars-cov-2.
The volume of research is most certainly skewed—any simple keyword search can prove it. But it could be for reasons other than external coercion.
So, based on evidence, he's making some leaps in conclusion that have yet to be proven true and might be incorrect. I'd hardly call him a kook.
His dubious claims have been documented, e.g., here.
Klaus, I don’t see them actually documenting anything. I see them making claims and linking to several things about his guests, but I don’t see a transcript, a quote, or a link to a video of Weinstein making the allegations that there alleging. I’m only about a third of the way through, but it hits me as an opinion piece that is extrapolating…
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Like Weinstein said, the problem with "trust the science" is the "the" qualifier.
That's true, but I must say that my appreciation of B. Weinstein has lessened quite a bit during COVID.
Why? Asking goofy, ridiculous questions is a shitload more scientific than refusing to question findings or political statements. And he's not at all wrong about the problem with "trust the science."
All scientific findings should be questioned, especially if there's reason to do so. But there's a difference between healthy skepticism and full-blown conspiracy theories. The difference is that in the former case you ask critical questions and are open to new evidence and adapt your position correspondingly, whereas in the latter case you shoehorn all evidence into a fixed predetermined model of reality. My impression of him was that he was doing the latter and not the former.
I keep listening to his podcast. I don't hear him doing that. The closest he seems to get is in claiming (with anecdotal evidence only, but at least it's not baseless) that there is a coordinated effort to suppress research into ivermectin effectiveness against Sars-cov-2.
The volume of research is most certainly skewed—any simple keyword search can prove it. But it could be for reasons other than external coercion.
So, based on evidence, he's making some leaps in conclusion that have yet to be proven true and might be incorrect. I'd hardly call him a kook.
His dubious claims have been documented, e.g., here.
Klaus, I don’t see them actually documenting anything. I see them making claims and linking to several things about his guests, but I don’t see a transcript, a quote, or a link to a video of Weinstein making the allegations that there alleging. I’m only about a third of the way through, but it hits me as an opinion piece that is extrapolating…
It's not as zany as the article makes it out to be. None of it is.
Weinstein's right: Ivermectin is a third rail topic. You can talk about Vitamin D and cardio vs COVID without any trouble (probably because there's no associated Trump sound byte), but never mention the horse paste. If you do you're one of THOSE.
Please love yourself.
-
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
a quote,
There are many quotes in the text. You doubt that the videos/podcasts actually contain those quotes?
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
a quote,
There are many quotes in the text. You doubt that the videos/podcasts actually contain those quotes?
He and his guests offered the claim that ivermectin is “99 percent effective” in treating COVID-19; that it could be used as a prophylaxis against infection; and that were it widely used, the pandemic would end in “a month.”
Based on the above, which quote should be attributed to which speaker?
"He AND his guests" is disingenuous at best. What evidence does he provide for universal agreement? None.
Please love yourself.
-
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Like Weinstein said, the problem with "trust the science" is the "the" qualifier.
That's true, but I must say that my appreciation of B. Weinstein has lessened quite a bit during COVID.
Why? Asking goofy, ridiculous questions is a shitload more scientific than refusing to question findings or political statements. And he's not at all wrong about the problem with "trust the science."
All scientific findings should be questioned, especially if there's reason to do so. But there's a difference between healthy skepticism and full-blown conspiracy theories. The difference is that in the former case you ask critical questions and are open to new evidence and adapt your position correspondingly, whereas in the latter case you shoehorn all evidence into a fixed predetermined model of reality. My impression of him was that he was doing the latter and not the former.
I keep listening to his podcast. I don't hear him doing that. The closest he seems to get is in claiming (with anecdotal evidence only, but at least it's not baseless) that there is a coordinated effort to suppress research into ivermectin effectiveness against Sars-cov-2.
The volume of research is most certainly skewed—any simple keyword search can prove it. But it could be for reasons other than external coercion.
So, based on evidence, he's making some leaps in conclusion that have yet to be proven true and might be incorrect. I'd hardly call him a kook.
His dubious claims have been documented, e.g., here.
Klaus, I don’t see them actually documenting anything. I see them making claims and linking to several things about his guests, but I don’t see a transcript, a quote, or a link to a video of Weinstein making the allegations that there alleging. I’m only about a third of the way through, but it hits me as an opinion piece that is extrapolating…
It's not as zany as the article makes it out to be. None of it is.
Weinstein's right: Ivermectin is a third rail topic. You can talk about Vitamin D and cardio vs COVID without any trouble (probably because there's no associated Trump sound byte), but never mention the horse paste. If you do you're one of THOSE.
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Like Weinstein said, the problem with "trust the science" is the "the" qualifier.
That's true, but I must say that my appreciation of B. Weinstein has lessened quite a bit during COVID.
Why? Asking goofy, ridiculous questions is a shitload more scientific than refusing to question findings or political statements. And he's not at all wrong about the problem with "trust the science."
All scientific findings should be questioned, especially if there's reason to do so. But there's a difference between healthy skepticism and full-blown conspiracy theories. The difference is that in the former case you ask critical questions and are open to new evidence and adapt your position correspondingly, whereas in the latter case you shoehorn all evidence into a fixed predetermined model of reality. My impression of him was that he was doing the latter and not the former.
I keep listening to his podcast. I don't hear him doing that. The closest he seems to get is in claiming (with anecdotal evidence only, but at least it's not baseless) that there is a coordinated effort to suppress research into ivermectin effectiveness against Sars-cov-2.
The volume of research is most certainly skewed—any simple keyword search can prove it. But it could be for reasons other than external coercion.
So, based on evidence, he's making some leaps in conclusion that have yet to be proven true and might be incorrect. I'd hardly call him a kook.
His dubious claims have been documented, e.g., here.
Klaus, I don’t see them actually documenting anything. I see them making claims and linking to several things about his guests, but I don’t see a transcript, a quote, or a link to a video of Weinstein making the allegations that there alleging. I’m only about a third of the way through, but it hits me as an opinion piece that is extrapolating…
It's not as zany as the article makes it out to be. None of it is.
Weinstein's right: Ivermectin is a third rail topic. You can talk about Vitamin D and cardio vs COVID without any trouble (probably because there's no associated Trump sound byte), but never mention the horse paste. If you do you're one of THOSE.
Yep. Trump + Conspiracy Theory = Ivermectin = No More Dinner Party Invites
-
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
a quote,
There are many quotes in the text. You doubt that the videos/podcasts actually contain those quotes?
He and his guests offered the claim that ivermectin is “99 percent effective” in treating COVID-19; that it could be used as a prophylaxis against infection; and that were it widely used, the pandemic would end in “a month.”
Based on the above, which quote should be attributed to which speaker?
"He AND his guests" is disingenuous at best. What evidence does he provide for universal agreement? None.
@aqua-letifer said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@klaus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@lufins-dad said in Ivermectin. Again.:
a quote,
There are many quotes in the text. You doubt that the videos/podcasts actually contain those quotes?
He and his guests offered the claim that ivermectin is “99 percent effective” in treating COVID-19; that it could be used as a prophylaxis against infection; and that were it widely used, the pandemic would end in “a month.”
Based on the above, which quote should be attributed to which speaker?
"He AND his guests" is disingenuous at best. What evidence does he provide for universal agreement? None.
“On the same podcast, he and his guests argued that the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines authorized for use in the United States, as well as the AstraZeneca adenovirus-vector vaccine, are so unsafe that the vaccinated are secretly dropping like flies from their effects. He also has avowed, on both the podcast and his Twitter feed, his trust in a UK physician named Tess Lawrie who has published a phenomenally insane paper that calls COVID-19 vaccines “unsafe for human use.” The paper advises that “Preparation should now be made to scale up humanitarian efforts to assist those harmed by the COVID-19 vaccines.”
Again, I’m not seeing the cite or the quote from Weinstein arguing that the vaccines were unsafe. I would like to see his exact words. Also, if he has avowed trust in the UK professor, that does not equate approval or agreement with the “phenomenally insane” paper.
-
It's not really possible to change the minds of Trumpist conspiracy theorists. What you must change, is their hearts. And good luck with that - considering what little heart they have to change. It would be like trying to fill a canvas with a drop of paint.
#FuckTrump
-
Results
Of 5939 ivermectin prescriptions, 348 (5.9%) were excluded. Of the remaining 5591 prescriptions, 4700 (84.1%) were for privately insured patients. Mean patient age was 51.8 years (SD, 15.7 years) (Table 1).Among ivermectin prescriptions, mean (SD) out-of-pocket spending was $22.48 ($24.78) for privately insured patients and $13.78 ($26.24) for Medicare Advantage patients; mean insurer reimbursement was $35.75 ($50.63) and $39.13 ($40.18), respectively; and mean total spending was $58.23 ($51.47) and $52.91 ($42.47), respectively. Aggregate total spending was $273 681.00 for privately insured patients and $47 142.81 for Medicare Advantage patients, of which insurer reimbursement represented 61.4% and 74.0%, respectively (Table 2).
In the week of August 13, 2021, private and Medicare plans paid an estimated $1 568 996.00 (43 888 × $35.75) and $924 720.16 (23 632 × $39.13) for ivermectin prescriptions for COVID-19. The weekly total of $2 493 716.16 extrapolated to $129 673 240.30 annually.
Discussion
Findings suggest that insurers heavily subsidized the costs of ivermectin prescriptions for COVID-19, even though economic theory holds that insurers should not cover ineffective care.4 Wasteful insurer spending on these prescriptions, estimated at $2.5 million in the week of August 13, 2021, would extrapolate to $129.7 million annually. For perspective, this total exceeds estimated annual Medicare spending on unnecessary imaging for low back pain, a low-value service that has received extensive attention.5 The true amount of waste is even higher because estimates did not include Medicaid spending. Moreover, by reducing barriers to a drug that some individuals use as a substitute for COVID-19 vaccination or other evidence-based care, insurance coverage could increase spending for COVID-19 complications.Limitations of this study include unclear generalizability to all private and Medicare plans. Despite this, findings suggest insurers could prevent substantial waste by restricting ivermectin coverage; for example, by requiring prior authorization. Although these restrictions might impede ivermectin use for non–COVID-19 indications, low prepandemic levels of dispensing suggest this use is infrequent.2 Consequently, the restrictions could reduce wasteful spending, and the number of patients who would experience barriers to evidence-based treatment for ivermectin would be small.
-
Don't like restrictions on off-label use. That's a doc decision, especially if it's as cheap as Ivermectin.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
-
How easily some are swayed.... there was a time when free and open discussion was encouraged. Now, f you dare speak anything that doesn't fit The Narrative, you will be mocked, cancelled, ridiculed.... we are being conditioned to accept that if we even think things not endorsed by The Narrative we will be punished, and if we dare to actually DO something that doesn't fit The Narrative, we will be persecuted, hunted down, punished, etc.
And some of us are all too happy to jump on that bandwagon lest you too are made to look foolish or otherwise not be accepted by the "superior tribe".
I don't care if someone suggests eating rat shit will cure something. Discuss it, check it out, see where it leads, and fuck The Narrative.
-
How easily some are swayed.... there was a time when free and open discussion was encouraged. Now, f you dare speak anything that doesn't fit The Narrative, you will be mocked, cancelled, ridiculed.... we are being conditioned to accept that if we even think things not endorsed by The Narrative we will be punished, and if we dare to actually DO something that doesn't fit The Narrative, we will be persecuted, hunted down, punished, etc.
And some of us are all too happy to jump on that bandwagon lest you too are made to look foolish or otherwise not be accepted by the "superior tribe".
I don't care if someone suggests eating rat shit will cure something. Discuss it, check it out, see where it leads, and fuck The Narrative.
@larry said in Ivermectin. Again.:
How easily some are swayed.... there was a time when free and open discussion was encouraged. Now, f you dare speak anything that doesn't fit The Narrative, you will be mocked, cancelled, ridiculed.... we are being conditioned to accept that if we even think things not endorsed by The Narrative we will be punished, and if we dare to actually DO something that doesn't fit The Narrative, we will be persecuted, hunted down, punished, etc.
And some of us are all too happy to jump on that bandwagon lest you too are made to look foolish or otherwise not be accepted by the "superior tribe".
I don't care if someone suggests eating rat shit will cure something. Discuss it, check it out, see where it leads, and fuck The Narrative.
Yeah that shit has got to go.
-
Don't like restrictions on off-label use. That's a doc decision, especially if it's as cheap as Ivermectin.
@jolly said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Don't like restrictions on off-label use. That's a doc decision, especially if it's as cheap as Ivermectin.
The stakeholders expand beyond patient and doc once insurance is involved — the insurance company, and whoever pays for insurance (maybe the employers who pays some of the premium, maybe the state or national government if you’re talking about Medicare/Medicaid) come into play.
-
@jolly said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Don't like restrictions on off-label use. That's a doc decision, especially if it's as cheap as Ivermectin.
The stakeholders expand beyond patient and doc once insurance is involved — the insurance company, and whoever pays for insurance (maybe the employers who pays some of the premium, maybe the state or national government if you’re talking about Medicare/Medicaid) come into play.
@axtremus said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@jolly said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Don't like restrictions on off-label use. That's a doc decision, especially if it's as cheap as Ivermectin.
The stakeholders expand beyond patient and doc once insurance is involved — the insurance company, and whoever pays for insurance (maybe the employers who pays some of the premium, maybe the state or national government if you’re talking about Medicare/Medicaid) come into play.
If you don't like how a doctor practices medicine, go be one.
-
Abstract
Importance Ivermectin, an inexpensive and widely available antiparasitic drug, is prescribed to treat COVID-19. Evidence-based data to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin are needed.Objective To determine the efficacy of ivermectin in preventing progression to severe disease among high-risk patients with COVID-19.
Design, Setting, and Participants The Ivermectin Treatment Efficacy in COVID-19 High-Risk Patients (I-TECH) study was an open-label randomized clinical trial conducted at 20 public hospitals and a COVID-19 quarantine center in Malaysia between May 31 and October 25, 2021. Within the first week of patients’ symptom onset, the study enrolled patients 50 years and older with laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, comorbidities, and mild to moderate disease.
Interventions Patients were randomized in a 1:1 ratio to receive either oral ivermectin, 0.4 mg/kg body weight daily for 5 days, plus standard of care (n = 241) or standard of care alone (n = 249). The standard of care consisted of symptomatic therapy and monitoring for signs of early deterioration based on clinical findings, laboratory test results, and chest imaging.
Main Outcomes and Measures The primary outcome was the proportion of patients who progressed to severe disease, defined as the hypoxic stage requiring supplemental oxygen to maintain pulse oximetry oxygen saturation of 95% or higher. Secondary outcomes of the trial included the rates of mechanical ventilation, intensive care unit admission, 28-day in-hospital mortality, and adverse events.
Results Among 490 patients included in the primary analysis (mean [SD] age, 62.5 [8.7] years; 267 women [54.5%]), 52 of 241 patients (21.6%) in the ivermectin group and 43 of 249 patients (17.3%) in the control group progressed to severe disease (relative risk [RR], 1.25; 95% CI, 0.87-1.80; P = .25). For all prespecified secondary outcomes, there were no significant differences between groups. Mechanical ventilation occurred in 4 (1.7%) vs 10 (4.0%) (RR, 0.41; 95% CI, 0.13-1.30; P = .17), intensive care unit admission in 6 (2.4%) vs 8 (3.2%) (RR, 0.78; 95% CI, 0.27-2.20; P = .79), and 28-day in-hospital death in 3 (1.2%) vs 10 (4.0%) (RR, 0.31; 95% CI, 0.09-1.11; P = .09). The most common adverse event reported was diarrhea (14 [5.8%] in the ivermectin group and 4 [1.6%] in the control group).
Conclusions and Relevance In this randomized clinical trial of high-risk patients with mild to moderate COVID-19, ivermectin treatment during early illness did not prevent progression to severe disease. The study findings do not support the use of ivermectin for patients with COVID-19.
-
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
-
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
@Doctor-Phibes said in Ivermectin. Again.:
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
You kid - but I hear that could be why some of the trials in areas with parasites can show benefits to using ivermectin for Covid.
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
Just a hypothesis though.
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in Ivermectin. Again.:
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
You kid - but I hear that could be why some of the trials in areas with parasites can show benefits to using ivermectin for Covid.
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
Just a hypothesis though.
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in Ivermectin. Again.:
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
You kid - but I hear that could be why some of the trials in areas with parasites can show benefits to using ivermectin for Covid.
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
Just a hypothesis though.
@xenon said in Ivermectin. Again.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Ivermectin. Again.:
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
You kid - but I hear that could be why some of the trials in areas with parasites can show benefits to using ivermectin for Covid.
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
Just a hypothesis though.
Might be a pretty good one.
In my career, I've only seen one patient with seven intestinal parasites. She was direct from rural Vietnam.
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in Ivermectin. Again.:
On the positive side, Group B was completely free of worms
You kid - but I hear that could be why some of the trials in areas with parasites can show benefits to using ivermectin for Covid.
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
Just a hypothesis though.
@xenon said in Ivermectin. Again.:
Basically - fighting off parasites + covid at the same time is harder than fighting off covid.
I doubt that a significant cohort of the COVID population is concurrently infected with any kind of worm. But, your point might be valid.
What I noticed, early on in all of these debates about other drugs, is that, for the most part, were in vitro - showing that a Petri dish infused with a virus and the drug showed inhibition of the virus.
What happens in vivo is a whole 'nother thing.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
