Dishonest analysis from the White House
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wrote on 23 Sept 2021, 23:30 last edited by xenon
Saw some article that the rich pay an average of 8.2% on their income. Which didn't really make any sense because the long-term capital gains rate is much higher.
Turns out they classify unrealized gains (e.g., stocks you haven't sold yet) as income.
That's just plain dishonest and a weasley way to make your case. There are reasonable arguments to be made for higher taxation without lying.
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wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 01:36 last edited by
Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not. E.g., the senior executive who is paid primarily with stock options can control when he exercises that stock option and hence when he triggers a taxable event, but the rank and file employee paid bi-weekly has no such control over -- the regular working stiff cannot say "keep my salary/wage earnings in an investment account and let it grow tax-free until I cash out at some indeterminate time in the future."
There is no good way to make apples-to-apples comparison between the two types of incomes.
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Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not. E.g., the senior executive who is paid primarily with stock options can control when he exercises that stock option and hence when he triggers a taxable event, but the rank and file employee paid bi-weekly has no such control over -- the regular working stiff cannot say "keep my salary/wage earnings in an investment account and let it grow tax-free until I cash out at some indeterminate time in the future."
There is no good way to make apples-to-apples comparison between the two types of incomes.
wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 01:41 last edited by@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
The poor working class does not pay taxes
An option the rich do not have
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@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
The poor working class does not pay taxes
An option the rich do not have
wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 02:09 last edited by@copper said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
The poor working class does not pay taxes
An option the rich do not have
You got that backwards. The poor working class, if they make any income from work, will pay Social Security and Medicare taxes. The rich can make passive incomes that are not subject to Social Security or Medicare taxes and still sock that money in tax deferred accounts to not pay any tax.
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wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 02:40 last edited by
That’s nonsense. I have and have used that option. I’m not rich. I just was responsible and saved. Everyone who has a 401K plan takes advantage of that option. Those who invest in Roth IRAs take advantage of an even better deal.
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That’s nonsense. I have and have used that option. I’m not rich. I just was responsible and saved. Everyone who has a 401K plan takes advantage of that option. Those who invest in Roth IRAs take advantage of an even better deal.
wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 02:47 last edited by@mik said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
I’m not rich. I just was responsible and saved.
I.e., you are not "poor working class." You may have been at one point, but not when you have "saved" enough to exercise those options.
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wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 02:49 last edited by Mik
The poor working class will always have worse options if they decide to stay at that status. They have very little benefit to add to the economy. The same cannot be said of those who work their way upward and invest.
It’s not supposed to be comfortable to be poor.
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Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not. E.g., the senior executive who is paid primarily with stock options can control when he exercises that stock option and hence when he triggers a taxable event, but the rank and file employee paid bi-weekly has no such control over -- the regular working stiff cannot say "keep my salary/wage earnings in an investment account and let it grow tax-free until I cash out at some indeterminate time in the future."
There is no good way to make apples-to-apples comparison between the two types of incomes.
wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 04:11 last edited by xenon@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
Sure - but unrealized gains are a lot broader than that.
Should you have to pay an additional tax every year if your house appreciates in value? Do you get tax credits when the market goes down?
On a practical level - who values the investments? For the public stock market it's easy enough - what about private equity investments.? What about art appreciation?
It would be a revolutionary change to tax unrealized appreciation - but all of the news articles based off of this read as "we did the math and the rich pay 8.2% and you suckers pay 30%+"
It's dishonest - and the White House is supplying the garbage fodder.
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@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
Sure - but unrealized gains are a lot broader than that.
Should you have to pay an additional tax every year if your house appreciates in value? Do you get tax credits when the market goes down?
On a practical level - who values the investments? For the public stock market it's easy enough - what about private equity investments.? What about art appreciation?
It would be a revolutionary change to tax unrealized appreciation - but all of the news articles based off of this read as "we did the math and the rich pay 8.2% and you suckers pay 30%+"
It's dishonest - and the White House is supplying the garbage fodder.
wrote on 24 Sept 2021, 11:50 last edited by@xenon said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
@axtremus said in Dishonest analysis from the White House:
Keeping gains "unrealized" to avoid taxation is an option that rich investor class has that the poor working class does not
Sure - but unrealized gains are a lot broader than that.
Should you have to pay an additional tax every year if your house appreciates in value? Do you get tax credits when the market goes down?
On a practical level - who values the investments? For the public stock market it's easy enough - what about private equity investments.? What about art appreciation?
It would be a revolutionary change to tax unrealized appreciation - but all of the news articles based off of this read as "we did the math and the rich pay 8.2% and you suckers pay 30%+"
It's dishonest - and the White House is supplying the garbage fodder.
Oh, just wait until they start the whole “Republicans are trying to. Lock you from getting your Social Security Check nonsense.