Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal
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The shame resides with the people in Afghanistan who believed - particularly, the young girls/women who sought education. Raising dreams/hopes to have them dashed is a greater tragedy than when no hope existed. It would appear that once again the idea of nation building - of bringing another nation's view of the world to a nation where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. It has implications far beyond the middle east. How do we all get along with such divergent ideas of what the world should look like - and how it should work? Who should lead and to what destination?
wrote on 14 Aug 2021, 21:55 last edited by@kluurs said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
Raising dreams/hopes to have them dashed is a greater tragedy than when no hope existed.
I disagree. It is cruel, but new ideas were brought to light, hope for the future; these women have daughters who they will pass these new messages on to.
Not treating it lightly. You're right, the disappointment must be bitter. But -- well, I won't repeat myself.
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The shame resides with the people in Afghanistan who believed - particularly, the young girls/women who sought education. Raising dreams/hopes to have them dashed is a greater tragedy than when no hope existed. It would appear that once again the idea of nation building - of bringing another nation's view of the world to a nation where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. It has implications far beyond the middle east. How do we all get along with such divergent ideas of what the world should look like - and how it should work? Who should lead and to what destination?
wrote on 14 Aug 2021, 22:00 last edited by@kluurs said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
The shame resides with the people in Afghanistan who believed - particularly, the young girls/women who sought education. Raising dreams/hopes to have them dashed is a greater tragedy than when no hope existed. It would appear that once again the idea of nation building - of bringing another nation's view of the world to a nation where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. It has implications far beyond the middle east. How do we all get along with such divergent ideas of what the world should look like - and how it should work? Who should lead and to what destination?
Well said, @kluurs .
However, I question this:
"It would appear that once again the idea of nation building...where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. "
I may be wrong, but the population that didn't want that was the one that was better-armed and more persistent than the US and its allies were.
It would be interesting to see a poll of the population and see how then feel about it.
My memory fades in my dotage, but I remember seeing polling in Iraq that supported new freedoms, etc.
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@kluurs said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
The shame resides with the people in Afghanistan who believed - particularly, the young girls/women who sought education. Raising dreams/hopes to have them dashed is a greater tragedy than when no hope existed. It would appear that once again the idea of nation building - of bringing another nation's view of the world to a nation where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. It has implications far beyond the middle east. How do we all get along with such divergent ideas of what the world should look like - and how it should work? Who should lead and to what destination?
Well said, @kluurs .
However, I question this:
"It would appear that once again the idea of nation building...where only a segment of the population wanted that was a dream too far. "
I may be wrong, but the population that didn't want that was the one that was better-armed and more persistent than the US and its allies were.
It would be interesting to see a poll of the population and see how then feel about it.
My memory fades in my dotage, but I remember seeing polling in Iraq that supported new freedoms, etc.
wrote on 14 Aug 2021, 23:27 last edited byIt is a very fragmented, tribal society. The government troops were well armed but neither unified or well led. To survive, we would have needed to maintain a sizable number of troops as we have in Korea and Germany. That’s a costly proposition.
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It is a very fragmented, tribal society. The government troops were well armed but neither unified or well led. To survive, we would have needed to maintain a sizable number of troops as we have in Korea and Germany. That’s a costly proposition.
wrote on 14 Aug 2021, 23:28 last edited by@kluurs said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
maintain a sizable number of troops as we have in Korea and Germany
Yes.
Are either of those necessary now? I can almost understand Korea...
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 00:32 last edited by
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 01:24 last edited by
Former POTUS speaks:
Former President Donald Trump on Saturday evening blasted his succesor’s strategy for exiting Afghanistan, saying it was driven by
“weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence.”“Joe Biden gets it wrong every time on foreign policy, and many other issues,” Trump said in a statement issued by his office. “Everyone knew he couldn’t handle the pressure. Even Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, said as much.”
Trump said his administration left behind a plan to keep pressure on the Taliban while U.S. troops withdrew, and that it was disregarded. He suggested the sudden surge by the Taliban across Afghanistan was due to that failure.
Biden “ran out of Afghanistan instead of following the plan our Administration left for him— a plan that protected our people and our property, and ensured the Taliban would never dream of taking our Embassy or providing a base for new attacks against America,” he said.
Former Pentagon chief of staff Kash Patel told Just the News on Friday that Trump’s plan included continuing U.S.air power to keep the Taliban in check and try to force them into negotiations.
“What a disgrace it will be when the Taliban raises their flag over America’s Embassy in Kabul. This is complete failure through weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence,” Trump said.
And, like everyone else in the last week, he offers no opinion as to what should be done.
"Don't do that," is not good criticism, unless you can append it with "do this instead."
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 02:12 last edited by
Well said Kluurs. Interesting thread.
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Former POTUS speaks:
Former President Donald Trump on Saturday evening blasted his succesor’s strategy for exiting Afghanistan, saying it was driven by
“weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence.”“Joe Biden gets it wrong every time on foreign policy, and many other issues,” Trump said in a statement issued by his office. “Everyone knew he couldn’t handle the pressure. Even Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, said as much.”
Trump said his administration left behind a plan to keep pressure on the Taliban while U.S. troops withdrew, and that it was disregarded. He suggested the sudden surge by the Taliban across Afghanistan was due to that failure.
Biden “ran out of Afghanistan instead of following the plan our Administration left for him— a plan that protected our people and our property, and ensured the Taliban would never dream of taking our Embassy or providing a base for new attacks against America,” he said.
Former Pentagon chief of staff Kash Patel told Just the News on Friday that Trump’s plan included continuing U.S.air power to keep the Taliban in check and try to force them into negotiations.
“What a disgrace it will be when the Taliban raises their flag over America’s Embassy in Kabul. This is complete failure through weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence,” Trump said.
And, like everyone else in the last week, he offers no opinion as to what should be done.
"Don't do that," is not good criticism, unless you can append it with "do this instead."
wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 02:58 last edited by@george-k said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
Former POTUS speaks:
Former President Donald Trump on Saturday evening blasted his succesor’s strategy for exiting Afghanistan, saying it was driven by
“weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence.”“Joe Biden gets it wrong every time on foreign policy, and many other issues,” Trump said in a statement issued by his office. “Everyone knew he couldn’t handle the pressure. Even Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, said as much.”
Trump said his administration left behind a plan to keep pressure on the Taliban while U.S. troops withdrew, and that it was disregarded. He suggested the sudden surge by the Taliban across Afghanistan was due to that failure.
Biden “ran out of Afghanistan instead of following the plan our Administration left for him— a plan that protected our people and our property, and ensured the Taliban would never dream of taking our Embassy or providing a base for new attacks against America,” he said.
Former Pentagon chief of staff Kash Patel told Just the News on Friday that Trump’s plan included continuing U.S.air power to keep the Taliban in check and try to force them into negotiations.
“What a disgrace it will be when the Taliban raises their flag over America’s Embassy in Kabul. This is complete failure through weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence,” Trump said.
And, like everyone else in the last week, he offers no opinion as to what should be done.
"Don't do that," is not good criticism, unless you can append it with "do this instead."
I'm pretty sure that embracing The Force would work.
Failing that, re-arranging G.I. Joe and Barbie in amusingly erotic positions never fails.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 12:12 last edited by
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 22:58 last edited by
The Speaker Speaks:
“The President is to be commended for the clarity of purpose of his statement on Afghanistan and the actions he has taken.
“The Taliban must know that the world is watching its actions. We are deeply concerned about reports regarding the Taliban’s brutal treatment of all Afghans, especially women and girls. The U.S., the international community and the Afghan government must do everything we can to protect women and girls from inhumane treatment by the Taliban.
“Any political settlement that the Afghans pursue to avert bloodshed must include having women at the table. The fate of women and girls in Afghanistan is critical to the future of Afghanistan. As we strive to assist women, we must recognize that their voices are important, and all must listen to them for solutions, respectful of their culture. There is bipartisan support to assist the women and girls of Afghanistan. One of the successes of U.S.- NATO cooperation in Afghanistan was the progress made by women and girls. We must all continue to work together to ensure that is not eroded.
“Once again, I want to acknowledge the clarity of purpose of President Biden’s statement and the wisdom of his actions. Congress shares the President's concern for Afghans who have assisted U.S. efforts in country, and we passed Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) legislation to provide for their relocation on a strong, bipartisan basis.
“Most of all, we join the President in acknowledging the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform and their families.”
Once again, I really don't have an opinion on what should have been done. Afghanistan has been a clusterfuck for centuries. The US is simply the latest nation to partake in it.
But...
The Taliban must know that the world is watching its actions.
I suppose a strongly-worded letter is to follow.
Had Trump or Obama done this, the negative press would have been just as bad. Well, in Trump's case, much worse, LOL.
But they didn't, and you know where the buck stops.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 22:59 last edited by George K
Oh...
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 23:20 last edited by
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 23:21 last edited by
Gotta wonder what our allies, the Pakistanis think of all this.
Probably winking and smiling.
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wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 23:28 last edited by
Was listening to NPR on the way back from Indy. Apparently Pakistan’s intelligence has orchstrated and supported the Taliban’s rapid takeover.
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Was listening to NPR on the way back from Indy. Apparently Pakistan’s intelligence has orchstrated and supported the Taliban’s rapid takeover.
wrote on 15 Aug 2021, 23:41 last edited by@mik said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
Apparently Pakistan’s intelligence has orchstrated and supported the Taliban’s rapid takeover.
Looking for my shocked face...
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wrote on 16 Aug 2021, 11:51 last edited by
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wrote on 16 Aug 2021, 12:12 last edited by
This debacle ultimately falls on the 80+ million people who elected these idiots. You knew these two were not qualified to sit in these seats but you voted for them anyway, because your TDS was stronger than your intelligence.
Jimmy Carter is smiling today. Why? Because today, he is no longer the worst president ever.
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This debacle ultimately falls on the 80+ million people who elected these idiots. You knew these two were not qualified to sit in these seats but you voted for them anyway, because your TDS was stronger than your intelligence.
Jimmy Carter is smiling today. Why? Because today, he is no longer the worst president ever.
wrote on 16 Aug 2021, 12:42 last edited by@improviso said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
This debacle ultimately falls on the 80+ million people who elected these idiots.
The press has been brutal, to be sure.
However, Trump, and Obama before him, made noise about withdrawing. I don't know if it would have been different had they done it. Perhaps it might have been slower, but the actual result would have been pretty much the same.
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@improviso said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
This debacle ultimately falls on the 80+ million people who elected these idiots.
The press has been brutal, to be sure.
However, Trump, and Obama before him, made noise about withdrawing. I don't know if it would have been different had they done it. Perhaps it might have been slower, but the actual result would have been pretty much the same.
wrote on 16 Aug 2021, 12:45 last edited by@george-k said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
Trump, and Obama before him, made noise about withdrawing. I don't know if it would have been different had they done it. Perhaps it might have been slower, but the actual result would have been pretty much the same.
How could it have been otherwise? Mik said the key thing IMO: "There are only two possible outcomes - we stay or we go. Was there any possibility of a positive outcome by staying or had all that could be accomplished been done? It's been 20 years."
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@george-k said in Biden "Forcefully" defends Afghan withdrawal:
Trump, and Obama before him, made noise about withdrawing. I don't know if it would have been different had they done it. Perhaps it might have been slower, but the actual result would have been pretty much the same.
How could it have been otherwise? Mik said the key thing IMO: "There are only two possible outcomes - we stay or we go. Was there any possibility of a positive outcome by staying or had all that could be accomplished been done? It's been 20 years."
wrote on 16 Aug 2021, 12:48 last edited byThe issue is not the withdrawal but the manner in which it was executed. Piss poor planning or lack of ANY planning. Probably the latter.