Here comes the middle-class tax hike
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@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
It wasn't agreed by me. We live in a very small house by American standards, but my wife doesn't work. I can probably retire at 62 if I want to. Admittedly, we live pretty conservatively, compared to a lot of people I know.
Not American conservatively, obviously. Those guys have gold toilets and spray-tans.
I was only joking
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@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I think through a middle class person's financial outlook for retirement, if they work a job with no pension, raise a family, and save reasonably. Good luck with that unless the stock market is high performing.
And what's the statistic again, more than 50% of Americans have essentially no savings?
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I think through a middle class person's financial outlook for retirement, if they work a job with no pension, raise a family, and save reasonably. Good luck with that unless the stock market is high performing.
And what's the statistic again, more than 50% of Americans have essentially no savings?
Is that a result of low income or of poor budgeting and spending habits? Possibly a combination of both, a drawback of the consumer economy.
Our retirement savings are mostly in the same investments they were in when they were called pensions. They are just not managed nor guaranteed by the corporations. But they were always in securities of one sort or another.
In the so called Golden Age of the American worker my uncle worked in a machine shop with no pension all his life. That can still happen today. But it doesn't have to.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I can probably retire at 62 if I want to.
Does that depend on being able to go back to Canada for healthcare?
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@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
I never knew many people who retired at 60.
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@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
It wasn't agreed by me. We live in a very small house by American standards, but my wife doesn't work. I can probably retire at 62 if I want to. Admittedly, we live pretty conservatively, compared to a lot of people I know.
Not American conservatively, obviously. Those guys have gold toilets and spray-tans.
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I am so much better off than my parents were, it's ridiculous.
What does that mean? Presumably you're not talking about having iPhones while they did not.
I thought it was widely agreed on that the days of a one-income family being comfortable owning a home, raising a family, and retiring at 60, are gone. That was our parents' generation.
It wasn't agreed by me. We live in a very small house by American standards, but my wife doesn't work. I can probably retire at 62 if I want to.
Do you have a pension? I exclude people with pensions from consideration about retirement concerns, or really any big financial concerns. But the fact that the vast majority of private sector workers don't have a pension allows me to do that while still speaking in generalities.
I am a secondary beneficiary of pensions, in that my dad had one, which has now transferred to my mom. They raised a middle class family, and retired at 60. But to the extent they ever built any wealth, that all happened in retirement, with the pension as income, funneled into the stock market.
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Yes, I've got a pension, plus a 401K. I know, I'm very lucky regarding the pension, although I chose my employer based on my own cautious outlook to money.
Anybody who can't afford to put money into a 401K isn't really middle-class as I understand the term, and if they can afford to but aren't doing so, then they've really only got themselves to blame.
I was only joking
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Today's pensions are not what they used to be either. We had three between us, two of which we cashed in for self-managed investments. We could have gone for the annuity, but that is an illusion too. If the market were to go that bust you're not getting your money anyway.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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Yes, I've got a pension, plus a 401K. I know, I'm very lucky regarding the pension, although I chose my employer based on my own cautious outlook to money.
Anybody who can't afford to put money into a 401K isn't really middle-class as I understand the term, and if they can afford to but aren't doing so, then they've really only got themselves to blame.
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Anybody who can't afford to put money into a 401K isn't really middle-class as I understand the term, and if they can afford to but aren't doing so, then they've really only got themselves to blame.
"Putting money in a 401k" is a far cry from a pension.
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Today's pensions are not what they used to be either. We had three between us, two of which we cashed in for self-managed investments. We could have gone for the annuity, but that is an illusion too. If the market were to go that bust you're not getting your money anyway.
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@jolly said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Fact check: The median family income in 1944 was less than $3000.
Today's median family income is $79,900.
https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il/il21/Medians2021.pdf
@george-k said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@jolly said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Fact check: The median family income in 1944 was less than $3000.
Today's median family income is $79,900.
I’m guessing the median family income comes from something close to 2 earners whereas in 1944 it was something close to 1.
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@george-k said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@jolly said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Fact check: The median family income in 1944 was less than $3000.
Today's median family income is $79,900.
I’m guessing the median family income comes from something close to 2 earners whereas in 1944 it was something close to 1.
@jon-nyc said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@george-k said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@jolly said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Fact check: The median family income in 1944 was less than $3000.
Today's median family income is $79,900.
I’m guessing the median family income comes from something close to 2 earners whereas in 1944 it was something close to 1.
I'd say that's a lot better than a guess.
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@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I think through a middle class person's financial outlook for retirement, if they work a job with no pension, raise a family, and save reasonably. Good luck with that unless the stock market is high performing.
And what's the statistic again, more than 50% of Americans have essentially no savings?
Is that a result of low income or of poor budgeting and spending habits? Possibly a combination of both, a drawback of the consumer economy.
Our retirement savings are mostly in the same investments they were in when they were called pensions. They are just not managed nor guaranteed by the corporations. But they were always in securities of one sort or another.
In the so called Golden Age of the American worker my uncle worked in a machine shop with no pension all his life. That can still happen today. But it doesn't have to.
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
I keep hearing about the destruction of the middle class even as I see the middle class living a far better life than when I was a kid.
I think through a middle class person's financial outlook for retirement, if they work a job with no pension, raise a family, and save reasonably. Good luck with that unless the stock market is high performing.
And what's the statistic again, more than 50% of Americans have essentially no savings?
Is that a result of low income or of poor budgeting and spending habits? Possibly a combination of both, a drawback of the consumer economy.
Our retirement savings are mostly in the same investments they were in when they were called pensions. They are just not managed nor guaranteed by the corporations. But they were always in securities of one sort or another.
In the so called Golden Age of the American worker my uncle worked in a machine shop with no pension all his life. That can still happen today. But it doesn't have to.
Let's take a middle class couple, two-earner family...Wife is a school teacher/clerical worker/retail worker and husband is a school teacher/mailman/HVAC tech. What are we talking about? $80k-$100K? Let's throw two kids into the mix...How middle-class is that couple?
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@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Today's pensions are not what they used to be either.
Yes, this is another generational difference, and not in favor of younger generations.
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@mik said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Today's pensions are not what they used to be either.
Yes, this is another generational difference, and not in favor of younger generations.
Well OK, but I look at my daughter's friends, and the houses these people live in, and I'm not left with the feeling that they're struggling. These things are freaking massive.
OK, maybe these people aren't average, but they're just kids going to State school in a fairly middle-of-the-road suburban town, and their houses are like nothing I ever saw when I was a kid, with the exception of that one really rich kid we all knew.
Our house is 1200 sq. feet. When I moved here we made a choice to live in a town with a good school, and live in a really small house.
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Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
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Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
Fair assessment. Unless he's yet another job hopper who doesn't plan on staying anyway. These people are legion. People like me who stick around, mostly due to a general lack of ambition and profound laziness, end up with cultural knowledge that the job hoppers never achieve, while their resumes ever burgeon with useless junk, and while they convince themselves that they learn so much going from job to job.
Education is extremely important.
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Yeah, if you change jobs every three years you've got no reason to complain about the lack of pension.
There's a lot to be said for lack of ambition and profound laziness. Or so I've heard.
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@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
Fair assessment. Unless he's yet another job hopper who doesn't plan on staying anyway. These people are legion. People like me who stick around, mostly due to a general lack of ambition and profound laziness, end up with cultural knowledge that the job hoppers never achieve, while their resumes ever burgeon with useless junk, and while they convince themselves that they learn so much going from job to job.
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
Fair assessment. Unless he's yet another job hopper who doesn't plan on staying anyway. These people are legion. People like me who stick around, mostly due to a general lack of ambition and profound laziness, end up with cultural knowledge that the job hoppers never achieve, while their resumes ever burgeon with useless junk, and while they convince themselves that they learn so much going from job to job.
Most young guys today are job hoppers. $5000/yr is a different universe for them
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@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
Fair assessment. Unless he's yet another job hopper who doesn't plan on staying anyway. These people are legion. People like me who stick around, mostly due to a general lack of ambition and profound laziness, end up with cultural knowledge that the job hoppers never achieve, while their resumes ever burgeon with useless junk, and while they convince themselves that they learn so much going from job to job.
Most young guys today are job hoppers. $5000/yr is a different universe for them
@jolly said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@horace said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
Another pointless anecdote - we interviewed a guy in his mid-40's for a job, and explained in detail about the full pension that's offered, and how it's so unusual nowadays.
He took a competing job that offered $5K more, with no pension.
My boss asked whether we should make a counter-offer, and I said no, I don't want to hire somebody that dumb.
Fair assessment. Unless he's yet another job hopper who doesn't plan on staying anyway. These people are legion. People like me who stick around, mostly due to a general lack of ambition and profound laziness, end up with cultural knowledge that the job hoppers never achieve, while their resumes ever burgeon with useless junk, and while they convince themselves that they learn so much going from job to job.
Most young guys today are job hoppers. $5000/yr is a different universe for them
This guy was in his 40's with kids. We reckon the pension is worth roughly $25K a year. You've only got to work there for 5 years to be vested.
No doubt when he's in his 60's he'll complain about how the middle class have done so badly.
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@doctor-phibes said in Here comes the middle-class tax hike:
This guy was in his 40's with kids. We reckon the pension is worth roughly $25K a year. You've only got to work there for 5 years to be vested.
Is the $5k/yr the only difference or are their other differences? Stock options from a startup, perhaps?
Different type of work or different levels of responsibility?
Different level of title, maybe?
Different boss (not you)?
