French Government Says No to Virginity Test
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@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Yes, let consenting adults take it or leave it
If the man insists and she refuses, that is a good indication that the wedding is probably a bad idea, but that is their business.
You don't know many Muslims, do you?
I got to know several when I worked in Kuwait.
They don't think like you. This is shameful.
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@jolly Failing a virginity test, whether the daughter is a virgin or not, is often used as the basis for an honor killing of her. Allowing the virginity test puts a young women at risk for murder at the hands of her own family. I would call that harm to society, and especially to the women. The tests can give false results, so even virgins are at risk.
I think about the fear a young woman would have, because within that culture, she knows all about honor killings. No wonder they try to flee.
@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly Failing a virginity test, whether the daughter is a virgin or not, is often used as the basis for an honor killing of her. Allowing the virginity test puts a young women at risk for murder at the hands of her own family. I would call that harm to society, and especially to the women. The tests can give false results, so even virgins are at risk.
I think about the fear a young woman would have, because within that culture, she knows all about honor killings. No wonder they try to flee.
Is honor killing against the law in France and how many occur each year?
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly Failing a virginity test, whether the daughter is a virgin or not, is often used as the basis for an honor killing of her. Allowing the virginity test puts a young women at risk for murder at the hands of her own family. I would call that harm to society, and especially to the women. The tests can give false results, so even virgins are at risk.
I think about the fear a young woman would have, because within that culture, she knows all about honor killings. No wonder they try to flee.
Is honor killing against the law in France and how many occur each year?
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My certain hunch is that premeditated First degree murder is indeed against the law in France. No such thing as or accommodation for honour killing even exists in Napoleonic criminal code. Nor should it.
@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
My certain hunch is that premeditated First degree murder is indeed against the law in France. No such thing as or accommodation for honour killing even exists in Napoleonic criminal code. Nor should it.
It doesn't under the Napoleonic Code I live under.
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No criminal charge for murder? I doubt it. Just stop with the BS trying to justify the unjustifiable. The practice of virgin certification in a secular liberal democracy is wholly unacceptable. Full stop.
@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
No criminal charge for murder? I doubt it. Just stop with the BS trying to justify the unjustifiable. The practice of virgin certification in a secular liberal democracy is wholly unacceptable. Full stop.
Read what I wrote.
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Quebec is also under Napoleonic code for civil cases, criminal is all whole other matter. Read what I wrote. Premeditated murder is wholly unacceptable. Full stop.
@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Quebec is also under Napoleonic code for civil cases, criminal is all whole other matter. Read what I wrote. Premeditated murder is wholly unacceptable. Full stop.
Let's underline that. It's premeditated murder.
Thank you, Renauda.
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Quebec is also under Napoleonic code for civil cases, criminal is all whole other matter. Read what I wrote. Premeditated murder is wholly unacceptable. Full stop.
Let's underline that. It's premeditated murder.
Thank you, Renauda.
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You are most welcome, Brenda. There is no other way to describe so called honour killings other than premeditated murder.
We've even ahd them here:
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No such thing as or accommodation for honour killing even exists in Napoleonic criminal code.
It doesn't under the Napoleonic Code I live under.
In other words in either the French Napoleonic Code or the Louisiana Napoleonic Code (we are the only state so governed) homicide is a chargeable offense.
Now, you can get your panties unbunched, since you now know what I wrote.
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You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
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@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.Yes, the practice allegedly violates France's new law of Separatism, therefore making virginity tests the business of the French state.
It is controversial. The left sees as discriminatory and the right sees it as weak and does not go far enough to root out the threat of domestic Islamicism:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-vote-idUSKBN2AG2A6
You further point out that the practice is not necessarily universal among Muslims and that Koran does not require a virgin bride. That suggests that the practice is in fact something other than religious or at least does not have a religious tradition or commandment to support it.
So if it is not a religious practice or is only culturally or tribally associated with Islam, then how can one, such as yourself, defend it as falling under a freedom of religious practice or requirement?
Apparently some Muslim and Roma women (the latter, I might add are probably not Muslims) are being forced to undergo these tests in France. So it is not a question of consent or freedom of choice either.
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
@jolly Agreed. That should also include testing for virginity, which is also often forced. The problem is that the young women are forced to do that, too, otherwise they are deemed to be admittedly no longer virgin. Guess what happens to them then?
We're right back to where we started with this discussion. I see these as linked.
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families? Does their religious freedom include forced testing? If women cannot decline testing without risking their lives, is that part of religious freedom?
Think what you want to think. I know there is no changing your mind nor mine.
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
Education is extremely important.
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Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
Because they don't consent. They are forced to be tested, too.
