China crushes democracy
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 00:07 last edited by
As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
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As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 00:10 last edited by@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
Not this westerner. And not a whole lot of people who voted for the same presidential candidate I did, think the same.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 00:12 last edited by
China is homogeneous, and not for the individual. The people born into it, like it that way.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 00:25 last edited by
Just a few miles from here down Route 17 they build aircraft carriers and other wonderful devices.
There are not many people around here who would be surprised to discover China is a commie state.
In fact, they wouldn't have to discover it at all, they already know.
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As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 00:29 last edited by@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
Spot on, Renauda.
I think there are plenty of people in the West that don't know if Mao was a good guy or a bad guy. And even more people in the West that don't give a damn because well, they just don't. -
@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
As Princeton Historian Stephen Kotkin has been trying to point out for several years, the only people who are surprised to discover that China is still a communist state are Westerners. We had actually led ourselves to believe in our own delusion that China was reforming politically alongside its economic transformation. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is no more reformed politically now than it was thirty years ago when the Tienanmen Square massacre happened.
Not this westerner. And not a whole lot of people who voted for the same presidential candidate I did, think the same.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 01:27 last edited by Renauda@jolly said in China crushes democracy:
Not this westerner. And not a whole lot of people who voted for the same presidential candidate I did, think the same.
Yes, if my memory serves me right, you have never bought into the China democratization model. Frankly speaking, I don't think many ordinary folks gave it much thought, particularly supporters of the presidential candidate you supported. Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies. Business is, by its very nature, opportunistic.
When I refer to westerners, I am referring to big business leaders, most politicians and academics. It was inconceivable to them that as the Chinese economy expanded and GDP increased that political reform towards democracy would not also take root. They failed to see or more likely forgot, that communism is an all or nothing system. A communist system cannot survive in a politically pluralist environment. Big business in particular looked at the Chinese Communist system through rose coloured glasses and saw the mirage of democracy in the distance.
The Chinese communists were and remain, very mindful of what happened in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European states when glasnost' and perestroika were introduced. The European Communist parties and their states imploded upon themselves. Not one was left in power. Owing to this, under no circumstances will Xi and the Party cadres allow any internal questioning of the political supremacy of the Communist Party over the organs of state or the Chinese population.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 01:50 last edited by
@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies.
There is no innocence in the Biden family, he has his own bourgeois capitalist cronies in the swamp, in swamps everywhere, maybe even in Canada along with Chinese swamp dwellers.
I'm just jealous. Nothing like easy money, in my family.
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@jolly said in China crushes democracy:
Not this westerner. And not a whole lot of people who voted for the same presidential candidate I did, think the same.
Yes, if my memory serves me right, you have never bought into the China democratization model. Frankly speaking, I don't think many ordinary folks gave it much thought, particularly supporters of the presidential candidate you supported. Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies. Business is, by its very nature, opportunistic.
When I refer to westerners, I am referring to big business leaders, most politicians and academics. It was inconceivable to them that as the Chinese economy expanded and GDP increased that political reform towards democracy would not also take root. They failed to see or more likely forgot, that communism is an all or nothing system. A communist system cannot survive in a politically pluralist environment. Big business in particular looked at the Chinese Communist system through rose coloured glasses and saw the mirage of democracy in the distance.
The Chinese communists were and remain, very mindful of what happened in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European states when glasnost' and perestroika were introduced. The European Communist parties and their states imploded upon themselves. Not one was left in power. Owing to this, under no circumstances will Xi and the Party cadres allow any internal questioning of the political supremacy of the Communist Party over the organs of state or the Chinese population.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 02:15 last edited by George K@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
Yes, if my memory serves me right, you have never bought into the China democratization model. Frankly speaking, I don't think many ordinary folks gave it much thought, particularly supporters of the presidential candidate you supported.
If my memory serves, the candidate that @Jolly supported called China out more than one time for being predatory and oppressive.
Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies. Business is, by its very nature, opportunistic.
As @Rainman says, we know a lot about the investments of the Biden offspring into China.
And here's where you post gets really, really good.
They failed to see or more likely forgot, that communism is an all or nothing system. A communist system cannot survive in a politically pluralist environment. Big business in particular looked at the Chinese Communist system through rose coloured glasses and saw the mirage of democracy in the distance.
The Chinese communists were and remain, very mindful of what happened in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European states when glasnost' and perestroika were introduced. The European Communist parties and their states imploded upon themselves. Not one was left in power. Owing to this, under no circumstances will Xi and the Party cadres allow any internal questioning of the political supremacy of the Communist Party over the organs of state or the Chinese population.
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@jolly said in China crushes democracy:
Not this westerner. And not a whole lot of people who voted for the same presidential candidate I did, think the same.
Yes, if my memory serves me right, you have never bought into the China democratization model. Frankly speaking, I don't think many ordinary folks gave it much thought, particularly supporters of the presidential candidate you supported. Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies. Business is, by its very nature, opportunistic.
When I refer to westerners, I am referring to big business leaders, most politicians and academics. It was inconceivable to them that as the Chinese economy expanded and GDP increased that political reform towards democracy would not also take root. They failed to see or more likely forgot, that communism is an all or nothing system. A communist system cannot survive in a politically pluralist environment. Big business in particular looked at the Chinese Communist system through rose coloured glasses and saw the mirage of democracy in the distance.
The Chinese communists were and remain, very mindful of what happened in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European states when glasnost' and perestroika were introduced. The European Communist parties and their states imploded upon themselves. Not one was left in power. Owing to this, under no circumstances will Xi and the Party cadres allow any internal questioning of the political supremacy of the Communist Party over the organs of state or the Chinese population.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 02:20 last edited by@renauda Great post, but I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
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@renauda Great post, but I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 07:00 last edited by@taiwan_girl said in China crushes democracy:
@renauda Great post, but I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
If I am jailed and executed, does it matter if it was a communist government instead of a fascist? Rightwing socialist or, leftwing communist, dead is dead.
The very poor in mainland China, would they go "whoppie!!" if someone explained to them that the country was now more fascist and moving away from communism?I guess I'm having a knee-jerk reaction to TG's post. As Renauda points out, the missing ingredient in communism is always the, "well, if the entire world were communist, then it would work."
I need to check on Venezuela, see how happy the people are now, as the same thugs continue in power. Bus driver, painter, stogie and drinking a shot of Vodka throughout the day, there are and were leaders, and then Orange Man Bad because shut up and no discussion allowed, period.
Did Renauda mention that Stalin actually didn't drink? Maybe it was someone else. Imagine supporting stupid gosplan edicts sober.
"Increase Paper Production!" Yessir, we shipped 100 tons more.
Good comrades.Truth was, the workers simply increased the weight of the individual pages and tadaa: compliance and a reward. They did the same thing with aluminum cans. Increased production by making thicker cans, since production was based upon weight.
And more stories at your favorite former soviet republic book stores, some in English. Stepping over frozed bodies in Siberia was a nice touch for the collective experience, I'm sure. Were the guards fascists or communists? OK now, I'm starting to rant, need to end. I wish to God we'd learn something, by studying the horrors of the 20th century instead of the beyond stupid, "but this time, it will work, because we're modern, progressive, blah blah nonsense." How many bodies next time.
PS - my mom's brother was allowed to live, while sentenced to 8 years in Siberia. All his Estonian male compatriots died, worked to death. The reason he was allowed to live, is he could perform higher maths, and was the only one that could calculate how much was being mined based upon what was bought to the surface. Then he did the Frederick Taylor dance, to increase production and save the butts of the overlords at the mine.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 10:44 last edited by
Powerful post, Rainman. You are correct that the semantics don't matter, it's their end goal that matters, and how they are working to get there.
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@renauda Great post, but I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 16:08 last edited by Renauda@taiwan_girl said in China crushes democracy:
@renauda ....I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
That is not an uncommon argument for the PRC. I however remain in the camp that still maintains that it is still very much a communist state. The reason is essentially twofold.
First, the country adheres to the Leninist model of a two tiered system in which the state apparatus is subordinated to the ruling Communist Party. The Party not only controls all levels of not only the state apparatus but also the private economy and society as a whole through a complex network of Party cells that oversee and ensures the supremacy of the Communist Party in all aspects of Chinese life. As well, the Party maintains a nomenklatura or list of Party officials that it, not the state, appoints as heads of state ministeries and enterprises, education and research institutions and members of Boards of Directors in the private sphere.
Secondly, there is ideology. Chinese communists still believe in Marxism - Leninism. While it gives the Party its strength it is also its Achilles heel. Xi and his faction represent the middle road within the Party. There still remains a powerful faction on the far left of the party that wants to abolish private business and economic reforms and return to the orthodox Maoism of the early era. There is also a right wing faction which in addition to supporting the current economic liberalism wants to introduce Gorbachev style political reform as well. Xi and his cadres know that they must walk a fine ideological line to keep the country from falling back into the hell of Maoism or begin the dissolution of Communist Party supremacy through promoting a Gorbachev style agenda of political reform.
In short while Marxism gives the PRC its ideology and world view, it is its adherence to the Leninist Party structure that enables it to liberalise economically while retaining and iron grip on political power and ideological supremacy. It thus remains very much an classic totalitarian communist state.
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@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
Yes, if my memory serves me right, you have never bought into the China democratization model. Frankly speaking, I don't think many ordinary folks gave it much thought, particularly supporters of the presidential candidate you supported.
If my memory serves, the candidate that @Jolly supported called China out more than one time for being predatory and oppressive.
Besides, that presidential candidate himself invested into China, just like the rest of his big bourgeois capitalist cronies. Business is, by its very nature, opportunistic.
As @Rainman says, we know a lot about the investments of the Biden offspring into China.
And here's where you post gets really, really good.
They failed to see or more likely forgot, that communism is an all or nothing system. A communist system cannot survive in a politically pluralist environment. Big business in particular looked at the Chinese Communist system through rose coloured glasses and saw the mirage of democracy in the distance.
The Chinese communists were and remain, very mindful of what happened in the Soviet Union and the Eastern European states when glasnost' and perestroika were introduced. The European Communist parties and their states imploded upon themselves. Not one was left in power. Owing to this, under no circumstances will Xi and the Party cadres allow any internal questioning of the political supremacy of the Communist Party over the organs of state or the Chinese population.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 16:21 last edited by Renauda@george-k said in China crushes democracy:
As @Rainman says, we know a lot about the investments of the Biden offspring into China.
Governments and corporations throughout the Western world have spent the last 40 years investing time, resources and capital into the PRC. It is futile to single out any one person or family for having business ties ad investments in the PRC. As I already pointed out we just assumed that Chinese economic reform would lead directly to political liberalisation. It it didn't and in fact, because if its economic success, in the past decade the PRC grew to become an aggressive player not only regionally, but also on the world stage. Biden too will have to look to a policy of containment of the PRC. He has no choice.
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@george-k said in China crushes democracy:
As @Rainman says, we know a lot about the investments of the Biden offspring into China.
Governments and corporations throughout the Western world have spent the last 40 years investing time, resources and capital into the PRC. It is futile to single out any one person or family for having business ties ad investments in the PRC. As I already pointed out we just assumed that Chinese economic reform would lead directly to political liberalisation. It it didn't and in fact, because if its economic success, in the past decade the PRC grew to become an aggressive player not only regionally, but also on the world stage. Biden too will have to look to a policy of containment of the PRC. He has no choice.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 17:20 last edited by@renauda Always enjoy your posts and learn something from them always! Thanks!
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@taiwan_girl said in China crushes democracy:
@renauda Great post, but I would say that mainland china is not communist and is in fact, moved away from communism under Chairman Deng and has move more towards something like fascist.
If I am jailed and executed, does it matter if it was a communist government instead of a fascist? Rightwing socialist or, leftwing communist, dead is dead.
The very poor in mainland China, would they go "whoppie!!" if someone explained to them that the country was now more fascist and moving away from communism?I guess I'm having a knee-jerk reaction to TG's post. As Renauda points out, the missing ingredient in communism is always the, "well, if the entire world were communist, then it would work."
I need to check on Venezuela, see how happy the people are now, as the same thugs continue in power. Bus driver, painter, stogie and drinking a shot of Vodka throughout the day, there are and were leaders, and then Orange Man Bad because shut up and no discussion allowed, period.
Did Renauda mention that Stalin actually didn't drink? Maybe it was someone else. Imagine supporting stupid gosplan edicts sober.
"Increase Paper Production!" Yessir, we shipped 100 tons more.
Good comrades.Truth was, the workers simply increased the weight of the individual pages and tadaa: compliance and a reward. They did the same thing with aluminum cans. Increased production by making thicker cans, since production was based upon weight.
And more stories at your favorite former soviet republic book stores, some in English. Stepping over frozed bodies in Siberia was a nice touch for the collective experience, I'm sure. Were the guards fascists or communists? OK now, I'm starting to rant, need to end. I wish to God we'd learn something, by studying the horrors of the 20th century instead of the beyond stupid, "but this time, it will work, because we're modern, progressive, blah blah nonsense." How many bodies next time.
PS - my mom's brother was allowed to live, while sentenced to 8 years in Siberia. All his Estonian male compatriots died, worked to death. The reason he was allowed to live, is he could perform higher maths, and was the only one that could calculate how much was being mined based upon what was bought to the surface. Then he did the Frederick Taylor dance, to increase production and save the butts of the overlords at the mine.
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 18:06 last edited by Renauda@rainman said in China crushes democracy:
Did Renauda mention that Stalin actually didn't drink? Maybe it was someone else.
No it definitely was not me. Being Georgian, Stalin enjoyed his wine, although he was by no means anything close to a drunk. His preferred wine was a semi sweet red called Kindzmarauli. He also apparently had a decent tenor singing voice - he obtained it as a child attending Orthodox seminary when he was studying for the priesthood.
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@renauda Always enjoy your posts and learn something from them always! Thanks!
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 18:19 last edited by@taiwan_girl said in China crushes democracy:
@renauda Always enjoy your posts and learn something from them always! Thanks!
Agreed. Renauda is my TNCR go-to guy in global matters.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 18:32 last edited by
There's a book, The Hundred-Year Marathon: China's Secret Strategy to Replace America as the Global Superpower
From the Amazon writeup: "For more than forty years, the United States has played an indispensable role helping the Chinese government build a booming economy, develop its scientific and military capabilities, and take its place on the world stage, in the belief that China's rise will bring us cooperation, diplomacy, and free trade. But what if the "China Dream" is to replace us, just as America replaced the British Empire, without firing a shot?
"Based on interviews with Chinese defectors and newly declassified, previously undisclosed national security documents, The Hundred-Year Marathon reveals China's secret strategy to supplant the United States as the world's dominant power, and to do so by 2049, the one-hundredth anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic. Michael Pillsbury,
a fluent Mandarin speaker who has served in senior national security positions in the U.S. government since the days of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger, draws on his decades of contact with the "hawks" in China's military and intelligence agencies 
and translates their documents, speeches, and books to show how the teachings of traditional Chinese statecraft underpin their actions. He offers an inside look at how the Chinese really view America and its leaders – as barbarians who will be the architects of their own demise." -
wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 18:33 last edited by
CNN is my go to source for global matters.
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There's a book, The Hundred-Year Marathon: China's Secret Strategy to Replace America as the Global Superpower
From the Amazon writeup: "For more than forty years, the United States has played an indispensable role helping the Chinese government build a booming economy, develop its scientific and military capabilities, and take its place on the world stage, in the belief that China's rise will bring us cooperation, diplomacy, and free trade. But what if the "China Dream" is to replace us, just as America replaced the British Empire, without firing a shot?
"Based on interviews with Chinese defectors and newly declassified, previously undisclosed national security documents, The Hundred-Year Marathon reveals China's secret strategy to supplant the United States as the world's dominant power, and to do so by 2049, the one-hundredth anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic. Michael Pillsbury,
a fluent Mandarin speaker who has served in senior national security positions in the U.S. government since the days of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger, draws on his decades of contact with the "hawks" in China's military and intelligence agencies and translates their documents, speeches, and books to show how the teachings of traditional Chinese statecraft underpin their actions. He offers an inside look at how the Chinese really view America and its leaders – as barbarians who will be the architects of their own demise."wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 19:01 last edited by Renauda@catseye3 said in China crushes democracy:
The Hundred-Year Marathon: China's Secret Strategy to Replace America as the Global Superpower
I am aware of that book as it was highly recommended a couple of years ago to me by my former Reservist RSS officer with whom I have kept in touch with since the early 1980's. Since then a few other friends and acquaintances who have now retired from federal departments dealing with various foreign policy issues have also recommended it.
It has been on my to read list for some time now.
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wrote on 27 Feb 2021, 19:54 last edited by
@renauda said in China crushes democracy:
Gorbachev
Renauda, thanks for taking the time to post such informative and deep perspectives. I read your expertise slowly, to absorb as much as possible.
If you have the time, I would enjoy asking you about Gorbachev. How would you evaluate him? And Reagan. The two go hand in hand in some respects of the era, no? Easy to say "good guy / good guy" at least compared to ruthless dictators of the past.