Can we at least end one narrative?
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As a people, we would make significant progress if we could find it in ourselves to acknowledge that both X-tremes, left and right, are problematical and burdensome. It isn't a matter of, oh the left is more awful or the right is more awful -- when what either of those positions boils down to is lack of understanding, lack of meeting of the minds, and disagreement with ME.
@Catseye3 said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
As a people, we would make significant progress if we could find it in ourselves to acknowledge that both X-tremes, left and right, are problematical and burdensome. It isn't a matter of, oh the left is more awful or the right is more awful -- when what either of those positions boils down to is lack of understanding, lack of meeting of the minds, and disagreement with ME.
Left and right aren't extremes. That's the whole point of a 2 party system. It's when a side goes too far to the left or right and become extremists. The center has shifted over the years to the left. I watched as the right became what used to be the center, and the left move further left. Under Obama the left moved further left, and the corruption the Clintons brought to the democrat party became weaponized by Obama. This hard left shift gave the Socialists an opening, the Republican had become a mixed bag of true conservatives, those who chose to move left so they could get the perks afforded them, and some who were quite frankly morons. We as a nation have moved the center so far to the left that anyone born after 1990 dont even see it. The left is SO far left now that they see any hint of being a conservative as being an extremist. Yet the last good president the democrat party produced was John Kennedy, and he would be rejected by today's democrat party as a far right extremist. I don't think he would even want to be a democrat today.
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JFK's monetary policy alone, would place him far to the right of Biden who is considered a centrist in the Demonrat party.
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JFK's monetary policy alone, would place him far to the right of Biden who is considered a centrist in the Demonrat party.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
@George-K said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump. But does that matter when wondering about the motivation of those who changed their 2016 Trump vote to a Biden vote this year? I would expect that the ones who did were mostly swing voters. Maybe they bought the narrative of the (far) left, but somehow I doubt that given that the same flip was not observed in senate or house. Maybe they feel the same about Trump as 4 years ago or even think he did better than expected, but simply preferred Biden and his policies. I doubt that for the same reason. That’s why I think those voters rejected Trump. Obviously the 70 million who voted for Trump, did not reject him.
Also, apart from “the dems have stolen the election with massive voter fraud!!!” I haven’t seen any other theories. Did he mess up the Covid crisis and was it that that cost him the election? Was it just bad luck with the Covid crisis that messed up the economy but the voters still blamed him? Were there simply too many of his policies they didn’t like?
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@George-K said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump. But does that matter when wondering about the motivation of those who changed their 2016 Trump vote to a Biden vote this year? I would expect that the ones who did were mostly swing voters. Maybe they bought the narrative of the (far) left, but somehow I doubt that given that the same flip was not observed in senate or house. Maybe they feel the same about Trump as 4 years ago or even think he did better than expected, but simply preferred Biden and his policies. I doubt that for the same reason. That’s why I think those voters rejected Trump. Obviously the 70 million who voted for Trump, did not reject him.
Also, apart from “the dems have stolen the election with massive voter fraud!!!” I haven’t seen any other theories. Did he mess up the Covid crisis and was it that that cost him the election? Was it just bad luck with the Covid crisis that messed up the economy but the voters still blamed him? Were there simply too many of his policies they didn’t like?
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@George-K said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump. But does that matter when wondering about the motivation of those who changed their 2016 Trump vote to a Biden vote this year? I would expect that the ones who did were mostly swing voters. Maybe they bought the narrative of the (far) left, but somehow I doubt that given that the same flip was not observed in senate or house. Maybe they feel the same about Trump as 4 years ago or even think he did better than expected, but simply preferred Biden and his policies. I doubt that for the same reason. That’s why I think those voters rejected Trump. Obviously the 70 million who voted for Trump, did not reject him.
Also, apart from “the dems have stolen the election with massive voter fraud!!!” I haven’t seen any other theories. Did he mess up the Covid crisis and was it that that cost him the election? Was it just bad luck with the Covid crisis that messed up the economy but the voters still blamed him? Were there simply too many of his policies they didn’t like?
COVID, personality and mail-in ballots.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@George-K said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump. But does that matter when wondering about the motivation of those who changed their 2016 Trump vote to a Biden vote this year? I would expect that the ones who did were mostly swing voters. Maybe they bought the narrative of the (far) left, but somehow I doubt that given that the same flip was not observed in senate or house. Maybe they feel the same about Trump as 4 years ago or even think he did better than expected, but simply preferred Biden and his policies. I doubt that for the same reason. That’s why I think those voters rejected Trump. Obviously the 70 million who voted for Trump, did not reject him.
Also, apart from “the dems have stolen the election with massive voter fraud!!!” I haven’t seen any other theories. Did he mess up the Covid crisis and was it that that cost him the election? Was it just bad luck with the Covid crisis that messed up the economy but the voters still blamed him? Were there simply too many of his policies they didn’t like?
COVID, personality and mail-in ballots.
@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
COVID, personality and mail-in ballots.
Not COVID per se, but Trump’s incompetent management of it.
Not merely personality but character, a few more voters became aware of how bad Trump’s is and decided that character matters.
Not mail-in ballots per se but increased access, that’s a good thing.
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#1) there may be a few that switched from Trump to Biden, but not many. This time they just brought more new voters...
- Trump managed the details just fine. They did a tremendous job ramping up the PPE production, ventilators, and other material goods. The things he could control, he did well. Where he screwed up was in not delivering the message clearly enough about most of this needing to be managed from a local level, and when the Chloroquine crap started up, he should have publicly and loudly come down on the media for the crap they pulled.
The Brad
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
COVID, personality and mail-in ballots.
Not COVID per se, but Trump’s incompetent management of it.
Not merely personality but character, a few more voters became aware of how bad Trump’s is and decided that character matters.
Not mail-in ballots per se but increased access, that’s a good thing.
@Axtremus said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
COVID, personality and mail-in ballots.
Not COVID per se, but Trump’s incompetent management of it.
Not merely personality but character, a few more voters became aware of how bad Trump’s is and decided that character matters.
Not mail-in ballots per se but increased access, that’s a good thing.
The claim that Trump mishandled the response to the China virus is one of the dumbest bits of propaganda the democrats came up with, and the only ones still saying it are complete morons.
The same when it comes to the attack on Trumps character. No one who supports and defends baby killing has any right to question anyone's character.
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#1) there may be a few that switched from Trump to Biden, but not many. This time they just brought more new voters...
- Trump managed the details just fine. They did a tremendous job ramping up the PPE production, ventilators, and other material goods. The things he could control, he did well. Where he screwed up was in not delivering the message clearly enough about most of this needing to be managed from a local level, and when the Chloroquine crap started up, he should have publicly and loudly come down on the media for the crap they pulled.
@LuFins-Dad said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
#1) there may be a few that switched from Trump to Biden, but not many. This time they just brought more new voters...
- Trump managed the details just fine. They did a tremendous job ramping up the PPE production, ventilators, and other material goods. The things he could control, he did well. Where he screwed up was in not delivering the message clearly enough about most of this needing to be managed from a local level, and when the Chloroquine crap started up, he should have publicly and loudly come down on the media for the crap they pulled.
You don't understand. Joe has a plan. As soon as he gets it approved by a committee...
Seriously, within his limits of power and size of the government, Trump did pretty well. Ax would bitch if they hung him with a new rope.
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@George-K said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
a rejection of Trump
More people voted for Trump than for any other President in history. I'm more than willing to concede that he lost the popular vote, but 70,000,000 votes hardly qualifies as a "rejection."
And those 70 million were called "chumps" by the apparent winner.
Uniter, indeed.
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump. But does that matter when wondering about the motivation of those who changed their 2016 Trump vote to a Biden vote this year? I would expect that the ones who did were mostly swing voters. Maybe they bought the narrative of the (far) left, but somehow I doubt that given that the same flip was not observed in senate or house. Maybe they feel the same about Trump as 4 years ago or even think he did better than expected, but simply preferred Biden and his policies. I doubt that for the same reason. That’s why I think those voters rejected Trump. Obviously the 70 million who voted for Trump, did not reject him.
Also, apart from “the dems have stolen the election with massive voter fraud!!!” I haven’t seen any other theories. Did he mess up the Covid crisis and was it that that cost him the election? Was it just bad luck with the Covid crisis that messed up the economy but the voters still blamed him? Were there simply too many of his policies they didn’t like?
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump.
That's the biggest problem. That's where all this stems from.
I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists. That's just the narrative now. There's no "well I understand your position on smaller government but I disagree." It's "you're the worst kind of person for voting for Donald Trump. It's so obvious you voted for Trump because you hate blacks, gays, women and/or immigrants."
That's the story.
Please love yourself.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump.
That's the biggest problem. That's where all this stems from.
I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists. That's just the narrative now. There's no "well I understand your position on smaller government but I disagree." It's "you're the worst kind of person for voting for Donald Trump. It's so obvious you voted for Trump because you hate blacks, gays, women and/or immigrants."
That's the story.
Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
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Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
The fence can be a very uncomfortable ride...
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Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
It's not equivalent. No it doesn't work both ways. Of course there are conservatives on the extreme end. Of course that's bad and it contributes to be a problem.
But conservatives aren't toppling statues of liberals they hate. They're not cordoning off city blocks and preventing the police from entering because they're that mad at liberals. They're not responsible for doxxing. They're not responsible for cancel culture.
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@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Like anything, it works both ways. A friend in the US sent me a picture of a big sign posted near their town - a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist.
People who support President Trump saying anybody who does not vote for him is brain dead, hates the US, Etc
There are extremes in both sides, but the middle 70% or so had very good reasons in voting for one candidate vs the other.
It's not equivalent. No it doesn't work both ways. Of course there are conservatives on the extreme end. Of course that's bad and it contributes to be a problem.
But conservatives aren't toppling statues of liberals they hate. They're not cordoning off city blocks and preventing the police from entering because they're that mad at liberals. They're not responsible for doxxing. They're not responsible for cancel culture.
@Aqua-Letifer again, you really think that is a large % of the people?
75,000,000 voted for VP Biden. How many actually are doing things like you said?
(I honestly don’t know , being somewhat removed from the situation).
Let’s say it is 150000 people doing what you are talking about. Seems like a big number but it is only 0.2% of the people who voted for VP Biden.
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@Aqua-Letifer again, you really think that is a large % of the people?
75,000,000 voted for VP Biden. How many actually are doing things like you said?
(I honestly don’t know , being somewhat removed from the situation).
Let’s say it is 150000 people doing what you are talking about. Seems like a big number but it is only 0.2% of the people who voted for VP Biden.
@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Aqua-Letifer again, you really think that is a large % of the people?
75,000,000 voted for VP Biden. How many actually are doing things like you said?
(I honestly don’t know , being somewhat removed from the situation).
Let’s say it is 150000 people doing what you are talking about. Seems like a big number but it is only 0.2% of the people who voted for VP Biden.
I think Aqua is spot on.
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@Aqua-Letifer again, you really think that is a large % of the people?
75,000,000 voted for VP Biden. How many actually are doing things like you said?
(I honestly don’t know , being somewhat removed from the situation).
Let’s say it is 150000 people doing what you are talking about. Seems like a big number but it is only 0.2% of the people who voted for VP Biden.
@taiwan_girl said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Aqua-Letifer again, you really think that is a large % of the people?
Ask Portland.
And yes, yes I do. I said in the other thread that I see this crap absolutely everywhere. I get it from family and friends, from the office, on LinkedIn of all places, on Instagram. And it's daily.
When I say LinkedIn and Instagram, I should make it clear that I don't follow influencers on that shit. I don't interact with people I don't know. So no, it's not the most extreme voices that are getting amplified, it's my family, friends, co-workers, colleagues, and folks who are into the same hobbies as me.
75,000,000 voted for VP Biden. How many actually are doing things like you said?
Enough that I literally can't get away from it unless I stop talking to people. And as I mentioned before, it's caused problems for me at work. A handful of times, and at different companies.
I'll trust my personal experiences over someone telling me what they think my personal experiences should be any day.
Let’s say it is 150000 people doing what you are talking about.
It's not. You're wrong about that.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump.
That's the biggest problem. That's where all this stems from.
I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists. That's just the narrative now. There's no "well I understand your position on smaller government but I disagree." It's "you're the worst kind of person for voting for Donald Trump. It's so obvious you voted for Trump because you hate blacks, gays, women and/or immigrants."
That's the story.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Sure, and the left should take a long hard look at the number of people who voted for Trump.
That's the biggest problem. That's where all this stems from.
I have yet to hear any liberal voter outside this place acknowledge that Trump voters aren't racists. That's just the narrative now. There's no "well I understand your position on smaller government but I disagree." It's "you're the worst kind of person for voting for Donald Trump. It's so obvious you voted for Trump because you hate blacks, gays, women and/or immigrants."
That's the story.
It’s regrettable that such things are said by people on the left, but as others have said as well, I doubt that that is the only story. Both sides have their nastiness to refer to. Take abortion for instance. It’s probably the most polarizing topic in the US and for that reason I’m more than a little hesitant to bring it up, but it’s quite illustrative.
If you’re someone who voted for Biden and you do some reading on this forum, you can bump into posts that not so subtly suggest that you are seen as someone who “has no problems killing babies in the womb”. You’re “pro-death”, a “baby killer”... Well, if that doesn’t make you feel as if the other side sees you as the most despicable human being on the planet I don’t know what does! And the pro-life movement isn’t quite innocent when it comes to the use of violence.
You may feel it coming more from the left side right now, and who knows, maybe it will get worse. But the above was just an example on how the right can stigmatise the left just as badly as the other way around. And the fact that many people of both sides are apparently all too eager to put practically everyone of the other side in a box, seems to me to be where all this stems from.
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Nunatax, as Aqua says, you are wrong. No one has lost their job because they support gay marriage or because they acknowledge <SJW cause du jour>. Many, many people have because they ran afoul of the left.
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Nunatax, as Aqua says, you are wrong. No one has lost their job because they support gay marriage or because they acknowledge <SJW cause du jour>. Many, many people have because they ran afoul of the left.
