The Iran War (was Nuclear Program) thread
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Do you really think they've been defeated?
While they've no doubt taken a lot of damage, they have effectively gained territory as things stand now. And gained stature, in that our gulf allies are questioning whether we have the ability (yes, ability) and will to protect their interests.
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It's already a done deal that Trump will eventually declare victory, and his opposition will say we lost. That will hold no matter what happens. I'm sure we can look forward to all the empirical evidence from jon's twitter feed that the opposition is right. Meanwhile I'll consume other media which will claim that the administration is right. Then I'll come to my own conclusion, and I won't tell anybody what that is. Because my opinions are pure gold, and I do not give them away for free.
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It's already a done deal that Trump will eventually declare victory, and his opposition will say we lost. That will hold no matter what happens. I'm sure we can look forward to all the empirical evidence from jon's twitter feed that the opposition is right. Meanwhile I'll consume other media which will claim that the administration is right. Then I'll come to my own conclusion, and I won't tell anybody what that is. Because my opinions are pure gold, and I do not give them away for free.
It's already a done deal that Trump will eventually declare victory, and his opposition will say we lost.
Defeat isn't something that Donald Trump understands, which is easy to understand when you consider that he has never lost anything in his entire life. From the instant he exited his mother's birth canal and immediately negotiated a really great deal with the magi from the east who came to honor him his entire existence has been one glorious triumph after another.
Defeat is the only thing in the entire universe that he doesn't know more about than anybody else.
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At the very least Iran's ability to project power either directly or through proxies is severely degraded. The continued blockade will eventually bring their economy to its knees. I don't see any way to claim Iran won this conflict.
Again, this should have been done during W's administration. we would not be very concerned with the amount of enriched uranium.
"You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell
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I highly doubt victory or winning applies to either belligerent in this pig’s breakfast:
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At the very least Iran's ability to project power either directly or through proxies is severely degraded. The continued blockade will eventually bring their economy to its knees. I don't see any way to claim Iran won this conflict.
Again, this should have been done during W's administration. we would not be very concerned with the amount of enriched uranium.
At the very least Iran's ability to project power either directly or through proxies is severely degraded. The continued blockade will eventually bring their economy to its knees. I don't see any way to claim Iran won this conflict.
It’s not over yet, but if they retain control of the strait, or are at all times a press release from regaining it, that’s an L for us.
I doubt that would have been a controversial statement prior to February.
I would also say that if the only way we regain a neutral strait and stop enrichment is by giving them something very much like the JPCOA, that’s an L for Trump if not for the USA. That most definitely wouldn’t have been controversial among republicans prior to 2/28.
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They have different cost/benefit analyses. Trump wants a deal above (almost) all. Israel wants to neuter its enemies above (almost) all.
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@Horace If there's a deal between the US and Iran, chances are high Netanyahu will have to face jail.
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They have different cost/benefit analyses.
Yeah that's the crux of what the opposition to the war wants to lay bare. People are suspicious that we don't actually have different goals.
So what is your hunch on the matter?
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They have different cost/benefit analyses.
Yeah that's the crux of what the opposition to the war wants to lay bare. People are suspicious that we don't actually have different goals.
So what is your hunch on the matter?
I reject the stuff about Israel having dirt on Trump and forcing him to do stuff. That's a very popular theory, online at least. "Because there's no other possible reason". That's always a red flag when it appears in someone's chain of logic. There's rarely "no other possible reason".
I just think the current admin (and previous ones) considers Israel to be an American outpost in the middle east. But if Israel goes their own way, I suspect those ties can be severed, even by this administration. To say nothing of future admins. Seems almost inevitable that this is the last fiercely pro-Israel American administration. The accusations of anti-semitism in an effort to silence opposition to Israel support, are as played out as any other accusation of systemic racism.
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They have different cost/benefit analyses.
Yeah that's the crux of what the opposition to the war wants to lay bare. People are suspicious that we don't actually have different goals.
So what is your hunch on the matter?
I reject the stuff about Israel having dirt on Trump and forcing him to do stuff. That's a very popular theory, online at least. "Because there's no other possible reason". That's always a red flag when it appears in someone's chain of logic. There's rarely "no other possible reason".
I just think the current admin (and previous ones) considers Israel to be an American outpost in the middle east. But if Israel goes their own way, I suspect those ties can be severed, even by this administration. To say nothing of future admins. Seems almost inevitable that this is the last fiercely pro-Israel American administration. The accusations of anti-semitism in an effort to silence opposition to Israel support, are as played out as any other accusation of systemic racism.
They have different cost/benefit analyses.
Yeah that's the crux of what the opposition to the war wants to lay bare. People are suspicious that we don't actually have different goals.
So what is your hunch on the matter?
I reject the stuff about Israel having dirt on Trump and forcing him to do stuff. That's a very popular theory, online at least. "Because there's no other possible reason". That's always a red flag when it appears in someone's chain of logic. There's rarely "no other possible reason".
I too doubt Netanyahu has much of anything on Trump other than some dubious money deals that went down long before he took up elected office. Probably involves mobster Russian Jews and their ill gotten gains arising from the demise of the USSR and the anarchy of the Yeltsin era.
I just think the current admin (and previous ones) considers Israel to be an American outpost in the middle east. But if Israel goes their own way, I suspect those ties can be severed, even by this administration. To say nothing of future admins. Seems almost inevitable that this is the last fiercely pro-Israel American administration. The accusations of anti-semitism in an effort to silence opposition to Israel support, are as played out as any other accusation of systemic racism.
You have mentioned all that before. I am more interested in your personal
hunch regarding the distracting dog’s breakfast of choice that is now Iran and the Persian Gulf. -
No strong opinion about Trump's motivations. The fact that Rubio said right after the start that Israel said it was going with or without the US, and that played a role, seems feasible. Even if he did walk that back at some point. Not sure how or why he would have said that if there's wasn't some truth to it.
Clearly Trump likes the feeling that he's a strong man capable of exerting his will on the world by way of military force. So that played a role too.
It's probably important not to imagine reasoning that seems complicated or nuanced, because Trump doesn't do complicated or nuanced.
Education is extremely important.
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No strong opinion about Trump's motivations. The fact that Rubio said right after the start that Israel said it was going with or without the US, and that played a role, seems feasible. Even if he did walk that back at some point. Not sure how or why he would have said that if there's wasn't some truth to it.
Clearly Trump likes the feeling that he's a strong man capable of exerting his will on the world by way of military force. So that played a role too.
It's probably important not to imagine reasoning that seems complicated or nuanced, because Trump doesn't do complicated or nuanced.
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