Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky
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@Renauda said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
You should be asking what other options did Putin offer to end the war other than Ukraine’s unconditional surrender and the withdrawal of NATO from all former Warsaw Pact countries. That was and remains, as Trump will soon discover, Putin’s demands.
Then it is the conclusion that the conflict was set on rails towards, according to Biden's plans, as per his security advisor. Either that, or an escalation on the part of the west to keep the conflict from that conclusion.
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There seems to be an implicit understanding within NATO that the "war" being waged against them by Russia was a certain level of "war" below that of the sort of "war" where there are soldiers from those NATO countries fighting and dying. These levels of "war" might be obfuscated with certain rhetorical framings of what is going on here, but clearly the levels remain understood and respected.
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What I wrote in the previous post is just obviously true. I get that you're the self appointed gate keeper here of who can and cannot have opinions on these topics. I appreciate that you've reigned in the insults lately, even as you continue to assert the gate keeper status. Meanwhile, everything I wrote in the previous post is just obviously true.
Education is extremely important.
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@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Especially such a complete capitulation. It’s humiliating to be an American this week.
There are other countries...
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion.
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@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
What I wrote in the previous post is just obviously true. I get that you're the self appointed gate keeper here of who can and cannot have opinions on these topics. I appreciate that you've reigned in the insults lately, even as you continue to assert the gate keeper status. Meanwhile, everything I wrote in the previous post is just obviously true.
If you say so but then not necessarily obviously true.
Like Zelenskyi said yesterday whether he was offended when Trump called him a dictator, he answered “no because only a dictator would be offended”.
Likewise here, only a gatekeeper would be offended. I’m sorry then that I may have offended you. You do not at all deserve the same derisive impunity I regularly afford the other two posters.
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@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Here’s a simple fact. There was no resolution in the offing under Biden. The prior administration and the Europeans seemed absolutely locked in on supporting the Ukrainians enough to put up a passable defense, but not enough to allow them to actually win the war, either.
Yep. When they really needed air superiority, we (along with Europe) dribbled in aircraft a few at a time, withheld aircraft or gave them aircraft with earlier generation avionics. When they needed more artillery, they got it piecemeal. Even the training we provided was not geared to a war of defense, but a war of maneuver, which doesn't translate when you can't use combined arms effectively.
The Ukranians have done a really good job with what they had. Their drone work has been outstanding. Their ability to rework and rebuild battle damaged armor has been exemplary.
But you can only do so much, with so little.
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It's been obvious for a long time that the principled western defenders of Ukraine, do not want to broach a talking point about potential military escalations against Russia. The discussions would feel a lot more honest if they did. But those discussions would immediately become a lot more complicated, as we openly consider a military escalation between nuclear powers. I can understand that the simple virtue-based talking points are a lot easier to get behind.
I don't consider military escalation against Russia by NATO members to be a non-starter. I only think it's remarkable how the principled defenders of Ukraine don't want to talk about it, as if there is another way Ukraine gets out of this, in the presence of what I am told are immutable and maximalist demands from Putin.
Education is extremely important.
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@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
You guys talk as if the only two possibilities were status quo or Trump switching sides and completely adopting every last one of Putin’s talking points while shaking down our former ally.
Seems there might have been other possibilities.
No. We’re just pointing out that this solution seems to at least be better than continuing what was going on… Do I personally believe it could have been accomplished without being a repugnant dick? Of course! I am Mr. How To Win Friends and Influence People…
But, that doesn’t change the fact that Ukranian and Russian kids aren’t going to continue dying in a proxy war with no reasonable shot at success for either side. There will be reasonable security agreements in place, and the US will receive at least some return.
I’m not a big “ends justify the means” person, but at least there is a not unreasonable end in sight.
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@Jolly said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Especially such a complete capitulation. It’s humiliating to be an American this week.
There are other countries...
True, but I’m an American after all. So when Trump humiliates us in front of the world, I can’t help but feel it.
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I don't consider military escalation against Russia by NATO members to be a non-starter. I only think it's remarkable how the principled defenders of Ukraine don't want to talk about it, as if there is another way Ukraine gets out of this, in the presence of what I am told are immutable and maximalist demands from Putin.
Now you’re resorting to passive aggression.
A tactic of the weak and defensive. Used to be a very obnoxious bitch of a woman who employed passive aggression on a regular basis in one or two incarnations of this forum. You don’t want to be associated with the likes of her.How do you want loyal Ukraine defenders like me to respond?
To say that NATO should have sent troops three years ago? it was too late by then, Putin had already invaded Ukraine in 2014.
Should NATO have responded when Crimea
was stolen and the rape of the Donbas started? In retrospect yes. Obama should have immediately spearheaded either a credible NATO military response or built a coalition of the willing to come Ukraine’s assistance as it had zero credible military capability to defend itself. Ten years ago a concerted show of force combined with economic sanctions would have either stalemated Putin or deterred him from escalating into the Donbas and fomenting a civil war. Obama could have and should have done exactly that. Then Trump did very little other than supply a few weapons and add a handful of new sanctions during his first term. But that’s neither here nor there. It was on Obama’s watch that action needed to be taken, not Trump’s.But to wait and then make a decisive military response such as a no fly zone or boots on the ground in 2022 when Putin was fully prepared and financed to wage war, would have resulted in a whole scale war in Europe and the very real danger of the deployment of nuclear weapons all the way up the ladder.
Happy now?
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@renauda I can't see any direct support of a current military escalation within that hindsight, nor an alternative to solving this for Ukraine without such an escalation. I am accepting for the sake of discussion that Putin's demands are maximalist and immutable.
I have insight into the Biden admin's thinking on the issue, since I listened to his security advisor talk about it transparently. Provide Ukraine with indefinite support at a level where they are slowly losing the war, and wait for them to negotiate a conclusion with Russia.
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One thing I don’t understand yet. How is Trump proposing to end the war? How does planting the US flag on Ukrainian mineral fields end the war? How is this less provocative than Ukraine joining NATO?
I might have just missed it, but I don’t get how this ends the war.
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@xenon said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
One thing I don’t understand yet. How is Trump proposing to end the war? How does planting the US flag on Ukrainian mineral fields end the war? How is this less provocative than Ukraine joining NATO?
I might have just missed it, but I don’t get how this ends the war.
The implication is that America would defend its interests more vigorously than they would if they didn't have those interests.
I appreciate that you're confused about that, but I continue to notice the selective lack of confusion about how this ends in Ukraine's favor, absent an escalation on the part of NATO that nobody wants to talk about.
Education is extremely important.
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Actually what I’m saying is that giving America territorial/mineral interest in Ukraine seems like more of a provocation than NATO.
America defending its interest sounds like a euphemism for American war with Russia.
I’m not confused about how this ends for Ukraine. I always thought it was either Russia truly runs out of steam, or Ukraine loses the will to fight. Ukraine is the one paying the human price, but still seems to want to pay it.
