Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky
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It would be a concession to stop prosecuting a war they are destined to win, absent an escalation between nuclear powers that ends who knows where.
No, that would be an outcome. A concession by Russia at this point would be that Kremlin stops attacking what remains of Ukraine and accepts that it is a fully sovereign and independent country that will freely decide its own future path. Putin’s NATO threat justification is a figment of his own twisted perception of reality.
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@Renauda I had been assuming that a peace deal in the immediate future would include sovereignty for Ukraine.
Assume nothing of the sort from Putin. He is incapable of negotiating anything in good faith. Putin’s objective, at the very least, is to have what will be left of Ukraine as a wholly subservient vassal state along the lines of Belarus.
The Ukrainian nation will not accept that outcome.
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@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Look at all the TDS in the comments. A combination of armchair principles and hatred of Donald Trump, extrudes as a self-righteous desire for a bloody conflict to continue indefinitely. Gotta love humans.
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Here’s a simple fact. There was no resolution in the offing under Biden. The prior administration and the Europeans seemed absolutely locked in on supporting the Ukrainians enough to put up a passable defense, but not enough to allow them to actually win the war, either. The whole “wearing down Russia’s military” sounds good on a balance statement but is a ridiculously immoral and unethical view, in my opinion. Spending and wasting Ukrainian and Russian lives to no great ultimate effect.
Did Trump go about this the right way? No. He’s a dickhead. But something is at least getting done. So which is better? A polite coward that lets the war continue killing people indefinitely, or a dickhead that does and says mean things, but gets the war ended and gets a business deal done that reimburses our investments and also provides an immutable security guarantee. It also opens up an economic opportunity for Ukraine that was not being utilized before.
The Brad
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In 2017, we were all assured that Ukraine was corrupt and the Government filled with individuals gat we’re little more than thugs. Now the same people are touting Ukraine as he brightest and shiniest example of honest democratic governance. LMFAO
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Here’s a simple fact. There was no resolution in the offing under Biden. The prior administration and the Europeans seemed absolutely locked in on supporting the Ukrainians enough to put up a passable defense, but not enough to allow them to actually win the war, either. The whole “wearing down Russia’s military” sounds good on a balance statement but is a ridiculously immoral and unethical view, in my opinion. Spending and wasting Ukrainian and Russian lives to no great ultimate effect.
Did Trump go about this the right way? No. He’s a dickhead. But something is at least getting done. So which is better? A polite coward that lets the war continue killing people indefinitely, or a dickhead that does and says mean things, but gets the war ended and gets a business deal done that reimburses our investments and also provides an immutable security guarantee. It also opens up an economic opportunity for Ukraine that was not being utilized before.
@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
A polite coward that lets the war continue killing people indefinitely,
In fairness, that appears to be the will of his voters. Democracy in action.
Education is extremely important.
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You guys talk as if the only two possibilities were status quo or Trump switching sides and completely adopting every last one of Putin’s talking points while shaking down our former ally.
Seems there might have been other possibilities.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
A polite coward that lets the war continue killing people indefinitely,
In fairness, that appears to be the will of his voters. Democracy in action.
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
A polite coward that lets the war continue killing people indefinitely,
In fairness, that appears to be the will of his voters. Democracy in action.
You may be right. The coward in this war is, of course, Putin, who alleges that he has 90% or more support of the Russian voters to pursue this war indefinitely.
The thought of free and sovereign Ukraine on his border is indescribably horrific to his existence. An existential threat beyond all others.
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You guys talk as if the only two possibilities were status quo or Trump switching sides and completely adopting every last one of Putin’s talking points while shaking down our former ally.
Seems there might have been other possibilities.
@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
You guys talk as if the only two possibilities were status quo or Trump switching sides and completely adopting every last one of Putin’s talking points while shaking down our former ally.
Seems there might have been other possibilities.
Dismissing the fever dream rhetoric that I'm sure seems truthy to you, it is fact that the only plan the Biden admin had, was to continue current levels of support indefinitely. That comes straight from his national security advisor. There was no plan beyond that. They were intentionally avoiding any negotiations, preferring to leave that to Ukraine and Russia. Where do you suppose that plan was leading?
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You missed my rather straightforward point entirely. Seems there were other options besides complete capitulation and status quo.
@jon-nyc You could come out of your shell and be specific about the point you're trying to make, rather than accuse others of missing them. Deliniate the options you're talking about, the ones that are definitely better than what Trump is doing. Mine your twitter feed for the best such point you've seen other people make.
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I literally twice made a concise point fully expressed in a single sentence. Your refusal to understand it seems willful at this point.
Do you just wish I had said something else? Do you just wish I had my own war plan for you to critique? Sorry to disappoint.
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I literally twice made a concise point fully expressed in a single sentence. Your refusal to understand it seems willful at this point.
Do you just wish I had said something else? Do you just wish I had my own war plan for you to critique? Sorry to disappoint.
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Ok well in the future just say ‘I wish you had said something else entirely’ rather than pretending to not understand what I actually did say.
@jon-nyc Well, you have mental blocks against good faith interpretations of oppositional viewpoints, and this is not new. I understand your claim that there are other options. My response to you was to get you to delineate those options, and your peculiar brain jumped to the comfortable conclusion that I just didn't understand your point. And there it will stay.
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No, you told me to be more specific while my point didn’t lack specificity at all.
I’ll repeat it one more time: ‘Seems like there should have been other options besides capitulation and status quo.’
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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You should be asking what other options did Putin offer to end the war other than Ukraine’s unconditional surrender and the withdrawal of NATO from all former Warsaw Pact countries. That was and remains, as Trump will soon discover, Putin’s demands. So long as Putin maintained those maximalist demands, NATO membership, with the exception of Hungary and more recently Slovakia, remained committed to keep Russia in isolation and facilitate Ukraine’s ability to defend itself.
Sorry if you can’t wrap your mind around that, but the least desirable option was to reward the tyrannical aggressor for its unacceptable behaviour. Never worked in past and will not work in the present or future. No one other than that war criminal bastard Putin has blood their hands from this war.
Elbows up!
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No, you told me to be more specific while my point didn’t lack specificity at all.
I’ll repeat it one more time: ‘Seems like there should have been other options besides capitulation and status quo.’
