Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Tags
  • Popular
  • Users
  • Groups
Skins
  • Light
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse

The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. John Bolton on Trump and Putin

John Bolton on Trump and Putin

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Discussion
45 Posts 8 Posters 954 Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • R Offline
    R Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on 21 Feb 2025, 22:09 last edited by
    #36

    Agreed.

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • H Horace
      21 Feb 2025, 22:08

      @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

      I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

      It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

      And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

      X Offline
      X Offline
      xenon
      wrote on 21 Feb 2025, 23:28 last edited by xenon
      #37

      @Horace said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

      @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

      I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

      It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

      And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

      I don’t think the option set is war of attrition or peace. There’s zero guarantee that Putin holds up his side of any bargain that’s struck here. I don’t think they’re afraid of losing face, they’re afraid of being oppressed (or worse).

      D H 2 Replies Last reply 22 Feb 2025, 01:13
      • X xenon
        21 Feb 2025, 23:28

        @Horace said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

        @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

        I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

        It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

        And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

        I don’t think the option set is war of attrition or peace. There’s zero guarantee that Putin holds up his side of any bargain that’s struck here. I don’t think they’re afraid of losing face, they’re afraid of being oppressed (or worse).

        D Online
        D Online
        Doctor Phibes
        wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 01:13 last edited by Doctor Phibes
        #38

        @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

        @Horace said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

        @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

        I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

        It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

        And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

        I don’t think the option set is war of attrition or peace. There’s zero guarantee that Putin holds up his side of any bargain that’s struck here. I don’t think they’re afraid of losing face, they’re afraid of being oppressed (or worse).

        I have no territorial claims in the Sudetenland. Sorry, sorry, Ukraine.

        I was only joking

        1 Reply Last reply
        • X xenon
          21 Feb 2025, 23:28

          @Horace said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

          @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

          I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

          It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

          And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

          I don’t think the option set is war of attrition or peace. There’s zero guarantee that Putin holds up his side of any bargain that’s struck here. I don’t think they’re afraid of losing face, they’re afraid of being oppressed (or worse).

          H Online
          H Online
          Horace
          wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 13:00 last edited by
          #39

          @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

          @Horace said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

          @xenon said in John Bolton on Trump and Putin:

          I just don’t get how you expect a people who have been paying in blood to accept falsehoods about themselves to get to peace.

          It’s asinine. These people have already gone to war for their rights and dignity. They’re not gonna give it up for Donald Trump of all people. This isn’t a bank loan application.

          And the non-asinine perspective is embracing a forever war of attrition that Ukraine cannot win, because losing face by accepting a peace deal penned by a guy who said mean words about them, would be unthinkable. Interesting priorities, but they have a faint whiff of armchair principles.

          I don’t think the option set is war of attrition or peace. There’s zero guarantee that Putin holds up his side of any bargain that’s struck here. I don’t think they’re afraid of losing face, they’re afraid of being oppressed (or worse).

          Ok. The absence of an alternative plan is still remarkable. The unspoken implication remains that it is America’s obligation to up the ante in a war against Russia until Russia leaves Ukraine alone. For some reason, the people who pigeonhole their attitude to exactly that, don’t really want to say it out loud.

          I like Rubio’s point that if America has an economic and strategic interest in Ukrainian resources, as per the settlement on the table, that constitutes a nice de facto guarantee of our support against aggressors.

          Education is extremely important.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • X Offline
            X Offline
            xenon
            wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 16:44 last edited by
            #40

            With the mineral deal in place, isn’t a forever war of attrition back on the table?

            R 1 Reply Last reply 22 Feb 2025, 18:05
            • X xenon
              22 Feb 2025, 16:44

              With the mineral deal in place, isn’t a forever war of attrition back on the table?

              R Offline
              R Offline
              Renauda
              wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 18:05 last edited by Renauda
              #41

              @xenon

              Then Ukraine would become the USA’s and NATO’s new West Germany.

              While it will be quite unacceptable to Putin, there will be nothing he can do about it. No war of attrition but a very long Cold War.

              Elbows up!

              1 Reply Last reply
              • M Offline
                M Offline
                Mik
                wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 18:06 last edited by
                #42

                Not necessarily. An American capital investment and personnel stationed in Ukraine makes it much more of a concrete American interest which could discourage further Russian aggression. I admittedly do not know if that's what Trump has in mind, but it's possible.

                "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

                1 Reply Last reply
                • H Online
                  H Online
                  Horace
                  wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 18:20 last edited by
                  #43

                  In a rare fit of transparency for the Biden admin, his National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan appeared on Yascha Mounk's podcast called The Good Fight, and talked about some of the prior administration's thinking about Ukraine.

                  • he considers the current level of support for Ukraine sustainable indefinitely
                  • He does not feel that America should be playing any role in negotiations, that any negotiations should be initiated by and between Ukraine and Russia only.
                  • He rejects the notion that different allocations of American military equipment would have changed the outcome (F16s earlier, different tanks, etc)
                  • He thinks the ongoing war is a huge success, compared to the predictions at the outset of a Russian steamroll into Kiev.

                  So, his plan was to support the war indefinitely, until Ukraine negotiated a deal on its own terms.

                  Education is extremely important.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • H Online
                    H Online
                    Horace
                    wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 18:22 last edited by
                    #44

                    I have difficulty with the notion that America purchases no agency in the proceedings with its support. That America's support is just table stakes for its place as the world's defender of freedom.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • X Offline
                      X Offline
                      xenon
                      wrote on 22 Feb 2025, 18:32 last edited by xenon
                      #45

                      Maybe I’m being dense and over-simplifying, but I would have thought that Ukraine would only give mineral rights if they’re going to get tangible military aid (that they intend to use) in return.

                      I guess what I’m hearing is that the mineral rights make it defacto US territory, and Russia won’t attack the US. I don’t know enough about the situation to comment on that.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      Reply
                      • Reply as topic
                      Log in to reply
                      • Oldest to Newest
                      • Newest to Oldest
                      • Most Votes

                      45/45

                      22 Feb 2025, 18:32


                      • Login

                      • Don't have an account? Register

                      • Login or register to search.
                      45 out of 45
                      • First post
                        45/45
                        Last post
                      0
                      • Categories
                      • Recent
                      • Tags
                      • Popular
                      • Users
                      • Groups