Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky

[Horace]

I guess Zelensky thinks it's in his interest to publicize every step of these negotiations. Maybe he's right.

[Renauda]

@Horace

Just as does Trump and Putin, except that those two cynically make shit up as they go along.

[AndyD]

I presume Zelensky has been told that members of NATO sign up to a rather wishy washy Article 5 which allows for individual members to decide their own response to any invasion.
Anything from nothing to nukes I guess.

[Renauda]

I am sure Zelenskyi is fully aware of the voluntary nature of Art. 5

Regardless it is a better guarantee for Ukrainian security than the either this rejected US proposal or the Budapest Memorandum

[jon-nyc]

Someone asked the question, had the Kremlin been in charge of US Foreign Policy statements for the last two weeks, how different would they have been?

[Renauda]

WASHINGTON, Feb 20 (Reuters) - The White House continued to press Kyiv on Thursday with its efforts to bring an end to the Russia-Ukraine conflict, urging it to rein in criticism and quickly sign a minerals deal pushed by U.S. President Donald Trump.

https://www.reuters.com/world/white-house-adviser-urges-ukraine-tone-down-criticism-2025-02-20/

The Ukrainian position is clear, they want specific security guarantees against future Russian aggression written into the deal before they will sign. Waltz knows this as well.

[jon-nyc]

[Renauda]

It seems Trumpigula is becoming madder by the hour.

[Doctor Phibes]

I honestly never thought I'd see the day when a US President, and least of all a Republican, would behave like this.

[Horace]

I can't even sniff a vague scent of hope that maybe Trump will end this war, necessarily on terms that Ukraine agrees to. Nor a recognition that if Harris had been elected, we'd still be on forever war rails, just like it was under Biden.

[jon-nyc]

Do you have such hope?

[Horace]

@jon-nyc Sure.

[jon-nyc]

Did you mean to say “not necessarily”?

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

I can't even sniff a vague scent of hope that maybe Trump will end this war, necessarily on terms that Ukraine agrees to. Nor a recognition that if Harris had been elected, we'd still be on forever war rails, just like it was under Biden.

If he can manage it without selling Ukraine down the river, it will be wonderful, however I honestly cannot see how his current behaviour can lead to such an outcome unless he makes a U-turn.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes And you were expecting the Biden/Harris strategy to lead to...?

[Doctor Phibes]

@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

@Doctor-Phibes And you were expecting the Biden/Harris strategy to lead to...?

I wasn't expecting it to lead to anything, however it seems to me that one person is responsible for this war. Not Biden, not Zelenski, not Harris.

Maybe he's the one who should be held accountable rather than attempting to shift blame like this, and certainly not by appeasement of actual dictators.

[Doctor Phibes]

And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?

WTF is wrong with the guy?

Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?

[Renauda]

@Doctor-Phibes

Some people, at least one or two in this forum in fact, cannot conceive that the axiom “it takes two to start a fight” does not always apply or ring true. This war is one such time.

Putin started this war entirely on his own. It was solely born of his own paranoia and imperial ambitions. He will not stop until those are satisfied or he is in his grave. The Russians have a saying “the hunchback is only cured by the grave”. That applies to Putin.

[Horace]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?

WTF is wrong with the guy?

Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?

Since you don't actually have any reasonable hope for any specific conclusion, you're talking about nothing other than your feels about the rhetoric being employed by the players. Meanwhile, there's a forever war going, at least until an inevitable Russian victory. I hear nobody engaging with that point, not even the illustrious Bolton, who admitted the Russians are the inevitable victor in a war of attrition, while also sneering at Trump for potentially "surrendering".

[Jolly]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:

And as for criticising Zelensky for not holding elections. Presumably, Trump is looking to overlook the savagery and barbarity with which his friend Putin assures his own election victories?

WTF is wrong with the guy?

Or am I completely wrong about this? Maybe it's time for that great American conservative Tucker Carlson to go on another fact finding mission and marvel at the price of Russian eggs?

He's decided to end this war. Zelensky is currently polling below 10% He using that as a hammer to make Ukraine sign off on a peace proposal.

Is that right? Maybe not. Is it effective in ending this war? Perhaps.