LEAN into it?
-
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 21:27 last edited by
I'm not a fast burner. I'm a good, solid "B". Many of the kids I went to school with, were a lot smarter than I.
I did 156 hours in four years.
-
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
Our higher education system is based on the idea of a luxury amount of time, to study a luxury breadth of subjects, in a leisurely manner. When I went through it, I resented the time spent. I wanted to join the workforce. It's possible to skip it and still do something other than blue collar work, but it's not easy. So, I went through it.
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 21:50 last edited by@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
-
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 21:55 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 21:56 last edited by@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
-
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 22:00 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
-
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 22:21 last edited by
I did medical school in 3 1/2 years - I took one summer off. I could easily see it being done in 3 years if you worked through.
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 22:33 last edited by Aqua Letifer@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
Actual liberal arts education. Sometimes you can get that through institutional education, but it's usually difficult.
-
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
Actual liberal arts education. Sometimes you can get that through institutional education, but it's usually difficult.
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 22:45 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
Actual liberal arts education. Sometimes you can get that through institutional education, but it's usually difficult.
That's just a hand wave. I'm sure you're good at liberal arts, and are educated in (some of) them. And I'm sure you're fun at parties. I'm not sure you're fun at parties because you can discuss Homer, but maybe so. That would have to be a particular party.
-
wrote on 22 Jan 2025, 23:20 last edited by
Well, if most at the party go Greek...
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
Actual liberal arts education. Sometimes you can get that through institutional education, but it's usually difficult.
That's just a hand wave. I'm sure you're good at liberal arts, and are educated in (some of) them. And I'm sure you're fun at parties. I'm not sure you're fun at parties because you can discuss Homer, but maybe so. That would have to be a particular party.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 05:25 last edited by@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
I've learned my share of liberal arts, but I'm still not fun at parties.
I think that first one is an assumption that may or may not be true. Particularly if by "liberal arts" you're referring to something that was administered through an educational institution.
I thought that's what we were talking about. What is it that you're talking about?
Actual liberal arts education. Sometimes you can get that through institutional education, but it's usually difficult.
That's just a hand wave. I'm sure you're good at liberal arts, and are educated in (some of) them. And I'm sure you're fun at parties. I'm not sure you're fun at parties because you can discuss Homer, but maybe so. That would have to be a particular party.
I'm mostly just giving you crap because I believe you mentioned previously that you reject party invitations as a metric for anything.
As for the value of liberal arts, my point really is that most liberal arts are just a specialization of storytelling. And one of the weirdest consequences to come out of the Enlightenment has been the idea that stories are entertainment. They're literally how we make sense of the world. You yourself tell many stories about the wokes here on this forum.
Since it's so fundamental to the human experience, then yeah, there's a great value in exposing ourselves to stories of all kinds, learning how to understand them and how to tell them properly to ourselves and others.
But it's not a hand-wave to say that a great many educational institutions completely fail their students in this. Many of their students end up worse off than when they started.
I'm all for a liberal arts education and think it's essential to living properly, but I have my doubts about whether this education should be sought in today's schools. Quite a few programs do more harm than good in this area.
-
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 10:09 last edited by
Not sure if accelerating the programs is the best answer but something must be done to increase med school capacity and that of many specialties. Whether that’s faster programs, more seats, more schools, or more leniency with graduates from overseas or all of the above.
-
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 11:33 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
Tequila is cheaper and has much the same effect
We had this discussion just the other day, and I bemoaned the fact that UK higher education focused so much on just studying the major subject. I seem to remember Jolly saying how important the liberal arts were, and I fully agree. My kids seem to be getting a much more rounded education than I did.
The LEAN workplace is miserable enough already. For God's sake let people absorb a bit of culture before they're sucked into the rat-race.
-
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 13:29 last edited by
My medical school had an accelerated program for some students. In that program, the student would attend undergraduate school, the education being focused on the sciences - biology, biochemistry, etc. After two years, they would join the incoming medical school class and take the same courses everyone else did. After the first year, they would be awarded a college degree. I don't recall exactly what it was called, but it was something like "Bachelor of Arts, Medical Sciences." They took almost no liberal arts.
Of my class of 160, 60 were in that program. I was in the 8 year program. We called them "shunts."
In the first couple of years, there was a distinct difference in ... something, in the shunts. I suppose it could be attributed to the difference between a 20 year old and a 22 year old. Perhaps, it was the lack of liberal arts education.
However, by the time real clinical work began, there was no difference in performance, personality whatever.
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
Tequila is cheaper and has much the same effect
We had this discussion just the other day, and I bemoaned the fact that UK higher education focused so much on just studying the major subject. I seem to remember Jolly saying how important the liberal arts were, and I fully agree. My kids seem to be getting a much more rounded education than I did.
The LEAN workplace is miserable enough already. For God's sake let people absorb a bit of culture before they're sucked into the rat-race.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 14:01 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
Tequila is cheaper and has much the same effect
We had this discussion just the other day, and I bemoaned the fact that UK higher education focused so much on just studying the major subject. I seem to remember Jolly saying how important the liberal arts were, and I fully agree. My kids seem to be getting a much more rounded education than I did.
The LEAN workplace is miserable enough already. For God's sake let people absorb a bit of culture before they're sucked into the rat-race.
I do think liberal arts are an important part of higher education. I also think there is too much fluff in many college degrees and some of that fluff is used to make money for the university.
Ok, stating that we need to continue some liberal arts education, even in technical degrees, I'd like to add a corollary...I'd like the mandatory liberal arts courses at the bachelor's level to be a shared experience. All students must take ___ hours of the same courses.
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
Tequila is cheaper and has much the same effect
We had this discussion just the other day, and I bemoaned the fact that UK higher education focused so much on just studying the major subject. I seem to remember Jolly saying how important the liberal arts were, and I fully agree. My kids seem to be getting a much more rounded education than I did.
The LEAN workplace is miserable enough already. For God's sake let people absorb a bit of culture before they're sucked into the rat-race.
I do think liberal arts are an important part of higher education. I also think there is too much fluff in many college degrees and some of that fluff is used to make money for the university.
Ok, stating that we need to continue some liberal arts education, even in technical degrees, I'd like to add a corollary...I'd like the mandatory liberal arts courses at the bachelor's level to be a shared experience. All students must take ___ hours of the same courses.
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 14:09 last edited by Doctor Phibes@Jolly said in LEAN into it?:
Ok, stating that we need to continue some liberal arts education, even in technical degrees, I'd like to add a corollary...I'd like the mandatory liberal arts courses at the bachelor's level to be a shared experience. All students must take ___ hours of the same courses.
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
I don't think individual courses should be mandated, I think people learn better if they get to choose and play to their interests. The furthest I'd go is to say 'at least two (or whatever) from the following....' and then give a decently large selection from literature, history, art, music, economics etc.
My real complaint about my degree was that I had very little choice.
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Horace said in LEAN into it?:
All of that is just undoubtedly true. Now, cue the "but liberal arts" crowd.
It is undoubtedly true that liberal arts makes you more fun at parties.
Tequila is cheaper and has much the same effect
We had this discussion just the other day, and I bemoaned the fact that UK higher education focused so much on just studying the major subject. I seem to remember Jolly saying how important the liberal arts were, and I fully agree. My kids seem to be getting a much more rounded education than I did.
The LEAN workplace is miserable enough already. For God's sake let people absorb a bit of culture before they're sucked into the rat-race.
I do think liberal arts are an important part of higher education. I also think there is too much fluff in many college degrees and some of that fluff is used to make money for the university.
Ok, stating that we need to continue some liberal arts education, even in technical degrees, I'd like to add a corollary...I'd like the mandatory liberal arts courses at the bachelor's level to be a shared experience. All students must take ___ hours of the same courses.
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 14:58 last edited by@Jolly said in LEAN into it?:
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
That's why I really like the St. John's model. You have a course on a text—no surveys. Throughout the semester, you meet as a class and try to collectively figure out just what it is you're reading. The instructor's there to facilitate discussion and—oh my word, controversy—gently call students out when they've strayed from reasonable interpretation or start talking out of their ass.
If you can do this with, say, Paradise Lost, then whether or not you've become a Milton appreciator is beside the point. What you've done is learn how to participate with a story, which is what you'll need for every other you'll ever come across.
Please love yourself.
-
@Jolly said in LEAN into it?:
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
That's why I really like the St. John's model. You have a course on a text—no surveys. Throughout the semester, you meet as a class and try to collectively figure out just what it is you're reading. The instructor's there to facilitate discussion and—oh my word, controversy—gently call students out when they've strayed from reasonable interpretation or start talking out of their ass.
If you can do this with, say, Paradise Lost, then whether or not you've become a Milton appreciator is beside the point. What you've done is learn how to participate with a story, which is what you'll need for every other you'll ever come across.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 15:13 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer There was a college like that in Mount Carroll IL - Shimer College
It was a happy thing just to know that a place as unlikely as Shimer—which, eschewing textbooks and lectures, assigned only primary texts, taught through discussion, and admitted promising students without ACT scores or high school degrees—could exist.
-
@Jolly said in LEAN into it?:
So, if we are mandating a few common courses, yet keeping in mind that we need to speed up degree acquisition, what liberal arts courses would you mandate and how many hours would you require?
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
That's why I really like the St. John's model. You have a course on a text—no surveys. Throughout the semester, you meet as a class and try to collectively figure out just what it is you're reading. The instructor's there to facilitate discussion and—oh my word, controversy—gently call students out when they've strayed from reasonable interpretation or start talking out of their ass.
If you can do this with, say, Paradise Lost, then whether or not you've become a Milton appreciator is beside the point. What you've done is learn how to participate with a story, which is what you'll need for every other you'll ever come across.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 15:13 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
Isn't that true of all education? You're not really an engineer once you get an engineering degree. All a university or school can really hope to do is light a fire.
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
Isn't that true of all education? You're not really an engineer once you get an engineering degree. All a university or school can really hope to do is light a fire.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 16:41 last edited by Aqua Letifer@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
Isn't that true of all education? You're not really an engineer once you get an engineering degree. All a university or school can really hope to do is light a fire.
Yes but the two couldn't be more different.
For one, no one is born knowing how to be an engineer, and not everyone is. It takes several years of training to even understand the concepts. Not true with storytelling. Children start telling stories at around the age of 2 years old. Unlike engineering, which is a necessary profession that not everyone needs to pursue, storytelling is something we all need to do. It's a basic part of what it means to be a human being. But, stuff starts to happen. Around second grade, we start being told our forms of expression are stupid. Our drawings, our stories, our games. Teachers, too, tell us this in their own way. Stories and games is slacking off silly shit and we need to cut it out and pay attention. Most people are very impressionable when it comes to social shame, and so cut it out we do. We stop expressing themselves. That creates some serious problems.
Second, no Western society is in danger of not teaching enough about the STEM fields. We're given incentives at every turn, from the time we start school to the time we retire. Upskilling, M-shaped skillsets and cross-compatible training and other such bullshit is shoved down our throats until we get our pensions. But plenty of people are not getting a proper liberal arts education. A central tenet of hustle-bro culture, which has many devotees, actually view fiction as a waste of time because "it's not real." This insanity shows in how they live, how they view the world, how they think of themselves and how they navigate cultural changes.
-
@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
Isn't that true of all education? You're not really an engineer once you get an engineering degree. All a university or school can really hope to do is light a fire.
Yes but the two couldn't be more different.
For one, no one is born knowing how to be an engineer, and not everyone is. It takes several years of training to even understand the concepts. Not true with storytelling. Children start telling stories at around the age of 2 years old. Unlike engineering, which is a necessary profession that not everyone needs to pursue, storytelling is something we all need to do. It's a basic part of what it means to be a human being. But, stuff starts to happen. Around second grade, we start being told our forms of expression are stupid. Our drawings, our stories, our games. Teachers, too, tell us this in their own way. Stories and games is slacking off silly shit and we need to cut it out and pay attention. Most people are very impressionable when it comes to social shame, and so cut it out we do. We stop expressing themselves. That creates some serious problems.
Second, no Western society is in danger of not teaching enough about the STEM fields. We're given incentives at every turn, from the time we start school to the time we retire. Upskilling, M-shaped skillsets and cross-compatible training and other such bullshit is shoved down our throats until we get our pensions. But plenty of people are not getting a proper liberal arts education. A central tenet of hustle-bro culture, which has many devotees, actually view fiction as a waste of time because "it's not real." This insanity shows in how they live, how they view the world, how they think of themselves and how they navigate cultural changes.
wrote on 23 Jan 2025, 17:47 last edited by Doctor Phibes@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
@Doctor-Phibes said in LEAN into it?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in LEAN into it?:
You can't get a "liberal arts education" in 4 years. It's got to be something you regularly do. It does you no good if for example you just stop at 21 and never pick up a book, watch a movie, see a play or read a news story ever again.
Isn't that true of all education? You're not really an engineer once you get an engineering degree. All a university or school can really hope to do is light a fire.
Yes but the two couldn't be more different.
For one, no one is born knowing how to be an engineer, and not everyone is. It takes several years of training to even understand the concepts. Not true with storytelling. Children start telling stories at around the age of 2 years old. Unlike engineering, which is a necessary profession that not everyone needs to pursue, storytelling is something we all need to do. It's a basic part of what it means to be a human being. But, stuff starts to happen. Around second grade, we start being told our forms of expression are stupid. Our drawings, our stories, our games. Teachers, too, tell us this in their own way. Stories and games is slacking off silly shit and we need to cut it out and pay attention. Most people are very impressionable when it comes to social shame, and so cut it out we do. We stop expressing themselves. That creates some serious problems.
Second, no Western society is in danger of not teaching enough about the STEM fields. We're given incentives at every turn, from the time we start school to the time we retire. Upskilling, M-shaped skillsets and cross-compatible training and other such bullshit is shoved down our throats until we get our pensions. But plenty of people are not getting a proper liberal arts education. A central tenet of hustle-bro culture, which has many devotees, actually view fiction as a waste of time because "it's not real." This insanity shows in how they live, how they view the world, how they think of themselves and how they navigate cultural changes.
I agree with your point in general, and I think we could all do with some more stories, games, music and art. I'm not sure I agree about the separation of engineering as being solely a learned skill. We have a fundamental instinct to build things and also to solve puzzles in the same way that we tell stories. At the risk of sounding like a complete dork, I was never happier as a small kid as when I was solving those logical puzzles we used to be given to shut us up on car journeys.
