McCarthy - More Lawfare

[George K]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/09/trump-is-far-from-the-only-target-of-dems-lawfare-abuse/

That is where, this week, a Republican poll watcher peeved over what he believed was cheating by Democratic election officials was “bound over” for trial on an elected Democratic county attorney’s ludicrous charge that he’d made a “terrorist threat” — a felony carrying a potential 20-year prison sentence and a fine of $20,000.
...
On December 15, 2023, during a contentious recount of some local elections from November of that year, Hess believed that Joe Rozell, the director of elections for Oakland County, Mich., was cheating. He complained about apparent tampering with seals on ballot bags, calling their chain of custody into question. Steamed, Hess walked out of the Election Division Training Room at the Oakland County Courthouse, in which Rozell was presiding over the recount.

Well outside the training room, in a near-empty hallway, Hess remarked to a fellow poll watcher, “Hang Joe for treason.”
...
Kaitlyn Howard, however, was in earshot. She appears to be another politically active person — a senior office-support clerk for the county Election Division who on that day functioned as a receptionist outside the recount room. She would later testify that she doesn’t “take kindly” to the “kind of behavior or language” she observed from Hess.

Like everyone else that day, though, Howard did not act like you’d expect someone to act in the face of a real “terrorist threat.” On hearing Hess’s remark, she felt no need to leave her post in a rush to report it to security personnel. Only later, upon being relieved by a co-worker from covering the reception desk, did she speak with deputy sheriffs who were on duty. She informed them about Hess’s statement and filed a formal complaint. In eventual testimony, she conceded that the remark was not directed at Rozell, who was not in the hallway. Not having been privy to whatever discussion Hess may have been having, Howard was also unaware of the context of the remark.
...
Because of Howard’s complaint, Hess was questioned on the scene — not because security personnel perceived a threat but because, having gotten a complaint, they had to go through the motions. Hess unequivocally denied making a threat, even though he had no hesitation in adding that he believed Rozell was cheating on the recount. “All I did,” he told the officer, “was accuse [Rozell] of a crime.” Hess analogized this to stating that a person one believed had committed a murder should “go to jail for the rest of their lives.” No reasonable person who heard that would deduce that the declarant was threatening to forcibly cart the suspect off to prison; it would be understood as an expression of opinion that the person should be charged by the prosecutors, tried in court, and then sentenced accordingly.
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At that point, in April, Karen McDonald, the elected progressive Democratic prosecutor for Oakland County, filed a criminal complaint charging Hess with making a terrorist threat, in violation of §750.543m of Michigan’s penal code. This statute makes it a serious felony if a person “threatens to commit an act of terrorism and communicates the threat to any other person.”

[Jolly]

Need to throw the prosecutor in jail.

[taiwan_girl]

Not speaking about the above case in specifics, but............ in today's world, you just dont make stupid jokes about hanging someone, blowing up an airplane, shooting, etc.

If something did happen, people will be complaining that "why didn't they stop him/her? A few weeks ago, he mentioned wanting to do XXXX, but I thought he was joking."

WHo decides when a person is joking and when they are not?

[Jolly]

@taiwan_girl said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

Not speaking about the above case in specifics, but............ in today's world, you just dont make stupid jokes about hanging someone, blowing up an airplane, shooting, etc.

If something did happen, people will be complaining that "why didn't they stop him/her? A few weeks ago, he mentioned wanting to do XXXX, but I thought he was joking."

WHo decides when a person is joking and when they are not?

Nobody.

Freedom of speech is just that, and sometimes language may border on a threat without actually being a threat.

[Horace]

I've mentioned often how I won't feel safe until certain people are in prison. Ironically, saying that may land me in prison. One cannot be sent to prison without physical violence, or at least its credible threat, backing it up.

[Jolly]

All power emanates from the barrel of a gun.

[taiwan_girl]

@Jolly said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

Freedom of speech is just that, and sometimes language may border on a threat without actually being a threat.

Agree. But how do you know?

How often is it read about somebody at an airport making a bomb "joke" or something like that and getting arrested. Were they joking? Probably. But again, doing and saying stupid things can get you into trouble.

[Jolly]

@taiwan_girl said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

@Jolly said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

Freedom of speech is just that, and sometimes language may border on a threat without actually being a threat.

Agree. But how do you know?

How often is it read about somebody at an airport making a bomb "joke" or something like that and getting arrested. Were they joking? Probably. But again, doing and saying stupid things can get you into trouble.

This isn't Singapore. Nor do I wish it to be.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety - Benjamin Franklin.

[taiwan_girl]

For good or bad, no right in the US is absolute. There are always limits of some kind.

[LuFins Dad]

@taiwan_girl said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

For good or bad, no right in the US is absolute. There are always limits of some kind.

Wrong. All rights are absolute. You just aren’t allowed to impede other people’s rights. The free speech thing? Absolute. Now if you use it to threaten or encourage physical violence on somebody else, then you are violating their rights. If they aren’t absolute, they aren’t rights. Inalienable is inalienable.

[George K]

@LuFins-Dad said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

All rights are absolute. You just aren’t allowed to impede other people’s rights.

Just for the sake of argument...

There exists an unalienable right to "Life." Yet, in many jurisdictions, capital punishment is permitted.

Once convicted of a "capital" crime, with appropriate sentencing (say life in prison), how does that conviction overturn/negate the right to life? If the right to life is absolute, it is...absolute?

[taiwan_girl]

@LuFins-Dad said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

All rights are absolute. You just aren’t allowed to impede other people’s rights.

So, they are not absolute then, correct?

Maybe I am not understanding. In the "battle of the rights", which is most powerful?

I dont mean to nit-pick, but for a hypothetic, lets say there is a religion that hates gay people (okay, maybe not so hypothetic. LOL). And I am gay and I feel threatened by their talk about wanting all gay people dead. They sincerely believe in their religion.

[LuFins Dad]

@taiwan_girl said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

@Jolly said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

Freedom of speech is just that, and sometimes language may border on a threat without actually being a threat.

Agree. But how do you know?

How often is it read about somebody at an airport making a bomb "joke" or something like that and getting arrested. Were they joking? Probably. But again, doing and saying stupid things can get you into trouble.

Credible threat. It’s why there are courts to determine whether an officer acted within limits of a credible threat.

Remember the asshat we posted about yesterday, the libertarian? He could face trouble because a jury might find that his language rose to the level of a credible threat or could certainly incite violence. At the very least, he invited a fully legal investigation to see if he posed a credible threat.

[George K]

@taiwan_girl said in McCarthy - More Lawfare:

And I am gay and I feel threatened by their talk about wanting all gay people dead.

@taiwan_girl The important word you wrote is "Feel."

That's subjective, not absolute. If you're wearing a blue shirt, and I hate blue, is it an offense for me to say, "I hate blue" because it makes you feel uncomfortable?

Wanting you to die because you wore a blue shirt, and saying I want you to die because you wore a blue shirt, is not a "credible threat."

Now, look at the case again.

A poll-watcher saw something he thought was fishy. That's his job. After a contentious meeting with "Mr. Fishy" he left the room, and said to SOMEONE ELSE "Hang Mr. Fishy for treason."

ANOTHER PERSON heard it and reported it as a terrorist threat.

Now, that's not quite up to the level of David French saying that someone needs to put a bullet in Trump, but I digress...