Riddle me this, Trump supporters
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“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
Yeah, the intellectually honest among us avoid the fact that Trump accomplished something against wokeness, which speaks directly to your point.
Edit: I misread your response in part.
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“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
I think it quite honest. Ignore the noise. Focus on what is important.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Sure a six three court stopped affirmative action. And that’s big. But that’s in the bag, as is a guaranteed (ignoring outlier improbabilities) conservative court for the foreseeable future. What’s left to gain on the SCOTUS front that would compensate for the resurgence of wokeness in institutions?
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
I think it quite honest. Ignore the noise. Focus on what is important.
@Jolly said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
“Yeah I understand we’re likely to see a resurgence of wokeness but it’s worth it for the judges/massive tariffs/capitulation to Russia/pick your favorite Trump policy” is an intellectually honest way to engage my question.
I think it quite honest. Ignore the noise. Focus on what is important.
Total agreement. But so many make comments like Dreher
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Sure a six three court stopped affirmative action. And that’s big. But that’s in the bag, as is a guaranteed (ignoring outlier improbabilities) conservative court for the foreseeable future. What’s left to gain on the SCOTUS front that would compensate for the resurgence of wokeness in institutions?
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
Sure a six three court stopped affirmative action. And that’s big. But that’s in the bag, as is a guaranteed (ignoring outlier improbabilities) conservative court for the foreseeable future. What’s left to gain on the SCOTUS front that would compensate for the resurgence of wokeness in institutions?
You're writing a check about a resurgence of wokeness that hasn't yet been cashed. Biden stood in front of the American people and said white supremacy was the #1 threat our country faces. He stood in front of a graduating class at an historically black college and told them the country hates them and that the deck will always be stacked against them. None of that will happen under Trump, we can at least be confident of that. We can also be confident that during the Biden administration, Trump has picked up black supporters.
If you think Trump gets elected and the presidents of all the universities go as woke as ever, then you can go ahead and believe that. It's of no consequence to what will actually happen.
Education is extremely important.
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We’ve sort of talked about this before, but I want to peel the onion back a layer and hear more specifics. On this topic:
To me, the following two statements seem incontrovertibly true:
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Trump was not effective in reigning in wokeness.
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Trump was very effective, perhaps more fairly, Trump’s presence in office was very effective in mobilizing the woke.
Would anyone seriously disagree with either of those statements?
If not, why would you think it would be any different if he had a second term?
Of course he could stop US agencies from doing certain things internally with their employees, but I’m talking about the culture at large.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
We’ve sort of talked about this before, but I want to peel the onion back a layer and hear more specifics. On this topic:
To me, the following two statements seem incontrovertibly true:
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Trump was not effective in reigning in wokeness.
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Trump was very effective, perhaps more fairly, Trump’s presence in office was very effective in mobilizing the woke.
Would anyone seriously disagree with either of those statements?
If not, why would you think it would be any different if he had a second term?
Of course he could stop US agencies from doing certain things internally with their employees, but I’m talking about the culture at large.
Oh, I quite agree that Trump was ineffective. I've brought up many times that the gender crap and CRT flourished in the education world while it was under his administration. I also think that it's quite possible that nobody in this forum despises and loathes Trump more than I do. I just also believe Hilary/Joe/Kamala would be even worse.
Now, as to mobilizing the woke, any "conservative" will do the same. It's absolutely hilarious that Kamala is praising Dick Cheney and George W. Bush... The fact that Mitt Romney is now treated as an elder statesman by the left is outrageously funny. They don't need Trump. This shit was happening before him and will continue after.
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@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
Sure a six three court stopped affirmative action. And that’s big. But that’s in the bag, as is a guaranteed (ignoring outlier improbabilities) conservative court for the foreseeable future. What’s left to gain on the SCOTUS front that would compensate for the resurgence of wokeness in institutions?
You're writing a check about a resurgence of wokeness that hasn't yet been cashed. Biden stood in front of the American people and said white supremacy was the #1 threat our country faces. He stood in front of a graduating class at an historically black college and told them the country hates them and that the deck will always be stacked against them. None of that will happen under Trump, we can at least be confident of that. We can also be confident that during the Biden administration, Trump has picked up black supporters.
If you think Trump gets elected and the presidents of all the universities go as woke as ever, then you can go ahead and believe that. It's of no consequence to what will actually happen.
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The culture is a magnificent beast, and you are giving Trump a great deal of control over it, because it suits your rhetorical goal of establishing that Trump supporters are own-goaling. Along those lines, I have reminded you that your own intense reaction to Trump aligns with those "woke" reactions you think will resurge. Yet you don't think you're own-goaling. You don't actually care if you give oxygen to outraged anti-social tantrums against Trump, because you don't personally support those particular reactions, so it's not your fault, right? But you expect Trump supporters to take responsibility for those same reactions. It's not nearly the good point you think it is. I suggest sharing it with your twitter feed if you'd like awesome positive reinforcement about it.
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you expect Trump supporters to take responsibility for those same reactions
I’m just trying to get them to stop lying to themselves and at least accept the trade off they’re making, as Jolly did.
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you expect Trump supporters to take responsibility for those same reactions
I’m just trying to get them to stop lying to themselves and at least accept the trade off they’re making, as Jolly did.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
you expect Trump supporters to take responsibility for those same reactions
I’m just trying to get them to stop lying to themselves and at least accept the trade off they’re making, as Jolly did.
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
Whether "wokeness" increases, well, to measure it, you'll have to define it, and it's my understanding that there is no accepted definition.
I am sure plenty of evidence for whatever rhetorical point you want to make, will exist on Twitter, and I look forward to seeing it here, if Trump wins.
Education is extremely important.
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I’m specifically asking people to disagree with it or tell me why ‘this time is different’.
Which of my statements do you disagree with?
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
tell me why ‘this time is different’.
Exactly, the time is different.
The pendulum has moved, it has a long period.
The momentum seems to be going in the right direction.
Let's keep it going in the right direction.
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@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
you expect Trump supporters to take responsibility for those same reactions
I’m just trying to get them to stop lying to themselves and at least accept the trade off they’re making, as Jolly did.
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
Whether "wokeness" increases, well, to measure it, you'll have to define it, and it's my understanding that there is no accepted definition.
I am sure plenty of evidence for whatever rhetorical point you want to make, will exist on Twitter, and I look forward to seeing it here, if Trump wins.
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
That elides the underlying point that many people are voting Trump because they’re tired of wokeness.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
That elides the underlying point that many people are voting Trump because they’re tired of wokeness.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
That elides the underlying point that many people are voting Trump because they’re tired of wokeness.
And your prescription for them is that they vote for the more woke candidate, so the woke go to sleep because they'll think they've already won. 4D chess indeed. It's a compelling point in your own mind, and nowhere else. Well, your twitter feed too.
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if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
That elides the underlying point that many people are voting Trump because they’re tired of wokeness.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
if you reframed your rhetorical question, you could say "will anti-Trump tantrums rise after Trump is elected", and you will probably find universal agreement.
That elides the underlying point that many people are voting Trump because they’re tired of wokeness.
You think anyone here is doing that? I don't. We can only answer for ourselves.
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You keep putting words in my mouth.
Go ahead and vote Trump, just don’t think you’re going to end wokeness that way.
@jon-nyc said in Riddle me this, Trump supporters:
You keep putting words in my mouth.
Go ahead and vote Trump, just don’t think you’re going to end wokeness that way.
It's wish-casting to believe with your certainty that "wokeness" will increase after Trump. What will definitely increase, is moral panic around a tribal idea of "an existential threat". A moral panic that has always been headquartered in the institutions. If those same institutions are too cowardly, while in that moral panic, to fight back against cultural forces that existed long before Trump and will exist long after, then one can predict an increase in that "wokeness". If you would like to make that prediction, you can feel free. I don't care that much whether it increases, in fact when the other tribe makes a fool of itself, it's often taken with some pleasure. I think you can relate, as you giggle through the racist pet-eating memes.
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I rarely listen to Andrew Sullivan's podcast, but I am subscribed to it, and I noticed his guest today is none other than Rod Dreher, the own-goaler Trump voter from the original post in this thread. Sullivan entirely understands Dreher's point, and says that if Kamala is elected, there will be an even more emphatic woke revolution throughout the government. Not everybody is on board with jon's "incontrovertible, fact-based" take on this issue, where the perfectly rational anti-woke single-issue voter would actually vote for Kamala.
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It depends I persuadable but at the same time happy to agree to disagree with someone I respect.
I didn’t declare the incontrovertibly true. I said they seemed that way to me and specifically invited people to tell me why I’m wrong.
By the way, there’s still time to tell me which of those two statements you disagree with.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy
