Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses"
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The world's first lesbian bishop of a major Christian denomination, Eva Brunne of the Lutheran Church of Sweden is calling for the removal of the crosses and other Christian symbols at the Seamen's Church in Freeport so that visiting foreign sailors practicing other religions like Islam "would not be offended."
According to the Stockholm-based news outlet SVT.se, Brunne not only intends to remove the Christian symbols but also set up a prayer room inside the church that would cater to people of other religions, particularly Muslim visitors. She explained that by doing so, Muslim refugees entering Sweden will be more at ease.
"Making a room available for people of other faiths does not mean that we are not defenders of our own faith. Priests are called to proclaim Christ. We do that every day and in every meeting with people," Brunne reportedly said. "But that does not mean that we are stingy toward people of other faiths."
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I'm so old that I remember when the Lutheran Church wanted to censure Rev. Benke for the transgression of syncretism after 9/11.
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@Mik said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Y'know what those crosses were for, right?
The crosses were used as torture devices to punish slaves, criminals, and enemies of the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion
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Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
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@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.
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@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
Very interesting. I'm not particularly religious, if at all. Nevertheless, I find the removal of Christian symbols, whatever they might be, for fear of offending some non-Christians, problematic.
Would anyone accommodate me if I felt "unwelcome" in a mosque?
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@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
On the theological side, I’d suggest that it is exactly as Jolly suggested. The death and resurrection of Christ are the primary movers that the Gospel are built around.
But if you want to go further than that, I would suggest it’s because it was a symbol that was co-opted from the occupying forces. Remember that these were days when most Jews were convinced the Messiah was going to be a military figure to push out the occupation by Rome. The crucifix was their instrument of torture and death that (and this is the important part) was displayed to the populace. These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you. The crucifix as a symbol was a giant middle finger back to Rome stating that somebody had beaten the crucifix and through His resurrection had ultimately rescued his people.
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@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
On the theological side, I’d suggest that it is exactly as Jolly suggested. The death and resurrection of Christ are the primary movers that the Gospel are built around.
But if you want to go further than that, I would suggest it’s because it was a symbol that was co-opted from the occupying forces. Remember that these were days when most Jews were convinced the Messiah was going to be a military figure to push out the occupation by Rome. The crucifix was their instrument of torture and death that (and this is the important part) was displayed to the populace. These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you. The crucifix as a symbol was a giant middle finger back to Rome stating that somebody had beaten the crucifix and through His resurrection had ultimately rescued his people.
@LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.
Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."
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@LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.
Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."
@George-K said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@LuFins-Dad said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
These deaths and tortures were very public, very open to proclaim to all of the enemies of Rome that this is what awaits you.
Yes. I remember listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman on "The Historical Jesus." He said that Roman "justice" was swift, gruesome and very very public. "If you misbehave, this is what we will do to you."
Right, so the cross was kind of a middle finger to Roman authorities.
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@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Jolly said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
@Klaus said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
Coincidentally I had a discussion with my partner about the symbolism of the Christian Cross just the other day.
I wonder how it became the symbol of Christianity and what exactly it symbolizes.
Death and Resurrection. Fulfillment of prophecy. By Christ's death and shedding of His blood, mankind has Redemption and Salvation. Through Christ's sacrifice, man now has the opportunity for eternal life.
The other day I was in Prague and visited a Hussitic church. It turns out that their main symbol is not the cross but this:
I found that quite interesting.
It's not obvious that the cross needed to be the main symbol. It could have been something else. I wonder what the main forces were that led to the establishment of the cross.
For the Hussites and the chalice, I think the main symbolism of the chalice was related to abandoning the special place of the church and it's priests as the channel through which ordinary people could communicate with God. They wanted the Communion under both kinds, which was a symbol of equality between normal people and priests, and the Charice was in turn a symbol for that.
See, to me the chalice would represent the Eucharist, which is a reflection of the Last Supper and the fulfillment of prophesy at Passover.
Out of Mathew 26...
26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
30After singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
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Link to video
I dunno if I did this correctly but this is an interesting video (though incomplete) on the subject.
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I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.
I was only joking
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I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.
One of the few examples of religious irony.
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I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Lutheran Bishop - "Remove the Crosses":
I always thought the symbol of the Lutheran Church was a smiley face.
Not the Lutheran Church Misery Synod,
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If you are going to remove the symbols, then don't call it a church. Call it a Hall of Reflection" or "Hall of Meditation" or something like.
If I go into a Taoist temple, and there are crosses with Jesus and things like that, I would not call it a Taoist temple anymore.
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G George K referenced this topic on
