Chauvin shivved
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Sorry, put me on Jon’s side on this. Chauvin didn’t just cross the line, he obliterated it. And police must be held to higher standards when they do cross the line.
The Brad
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Sorry, put me on Jon’s side on this. Chauvin didn’t just cross the line, he obliterated it. And police must be held to higher standards when they do cross the line.
@LuFins-Dad said in Chauvin shivved:
Sorry, put me on Jon’s side on this. Chauvin didn’t just cross the line, he obliterated it. And police must be held to higher standards when they do cross the line.
Second degree murder? Third degree murder?
Police should be held to a high standard, but they should also be charged and prosecuted fairly.
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@jon-nyc said in Chauvin shivved:
Google tells me respiratory depression or even arrest is a fentanyl overdose symptom. Very, very last person who’s neck you should put your weight on.
The more you guys post the more I’m starting to be convinced that the verdict was correct.
Floyd was a pretty good-sized guy and high as a kite. While I don't approve of the neck hold, tell me exactly how you handle someone like that, when they're resisting arrest?
Life ain't the movies. Fighting down a crazy can and will get you hurt. Badly. During my career at St. Elsewhere, we had a security guard stabbed, another suffer a broken leg and ankle and a maintenance guy get his jaw broken while trying to help in a Code White.
@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
@jon-nyc said in Chauvin shivved:
Google tells me respiratory depression or even arrest is a fentanyl overdose symptom. Very, very last person who’s neck you should put your weight on.
The more you guys post the more I’m starting to be convinced that the verdict was correct.
Floyd was a pretty good-sized guy and high as a kite. While I don't approve of the neck hold, tell me exactly how you handle someone like that, when they're resisting arrest?
The dude was already handcuffed face down when Chauvin put his weight on his neck for 9 solid minutes.
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@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
@jon-nyc said in Chauvin shivved:
Google tells me respiratory depression or even arrest is a fentanyl overdose symptom. Very, very last person who’s neck you should put your weight on.
The more you guys post the more I’m starting to be convinced that the verdict was correct.
Floyd was a pretty good-sized guy and high as a kite. While I don't approve of the neck hold, tell me exactly how you handle someone like that, when they're resisting arrest?
The dude was already handcuffed face down when Chauvin put his weight on his neck for 9 solid minutes.
@jon-nyc said in Chauvin shivved:
@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
@jon-nyc said in Chauvin shivved:
Google tells me respiratory depression or even arrest is a fentanyl overdose symptom. Very, very last person who’s neck you should put your weight on.
The more you guys post the more I’m starting to be convinced that the verdict was correct.
Floyd was a pretty good-sized guy and high as a kite. While I don't approve of the neck hold, tell me exactly how you handle someone like that, when they're resisting arrest?
The dude was already handcuffed face down when Chauvin put his weight on his neck for 9 solid minutes.
So you believe Chauvin intended to kill Floyd? I understand that whenever anybody does something stupid or careless that causes the death of another person, the consequences skyrocket. But where is the line for 1st degree murder?
We have a very similar case coming up with Daniel Penny, I guess we'll all have our chance to throw our lots in with this or that tribally meaningful conclusion.
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I'm not sure I understand.
Can one be guilty of 3 murders in the death of one person?
In early 2021, Chauvin was put on trial for unintentional second-degree murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter of Floyd before a jury in the Minnesota Fourth Judicial District Court. On April 20, he was convicted on all of the charges.
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I don’t think Chauvin intended to kill him, at the time I thought - indeed worried - that the DA had overcharged the case (worried because I knew cities would burn in case of acquittal). But I always thought he over did it to the point of criminality and as you guys bring these additional facts to my attention it seems a slam dunk for negligent homicide.
I have a lot of sympathy for Penny, it will be a very fact intensive case but my going in position was against the indictment.
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I can agree with a negligent homicide verdict.
Second degree murder is a couple of bridges too far.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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From my inbox today, from Glenn Loury, a personal friend who often sends me letters:
Link to videoIn the documentary What Killed Michael Brown?, Shelby Steele coins the term “poetic truth” in order to describe the persistence of the myth that Michael Brown was “executed” by Darren Wilson. Steele calls poetic truth, “a distortion of the actual truth that we use to sue for leverage and power in the world. It is a partisan version of reality, a storyline that we put forward to build our case.” Poetic truth “thrives more by coercion than reason,” accusing all who dispute it of complicity with the ineradicably racist system that governs and has always governed the country.
That Darren Wilson executed Michael Brown is one such poetic truth; that Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd is, I believe, another. Despite the aptness of Steele’s term, poetic truth is no truth at all, nor is it particularly poetic. It is power masquerading as fact, brute force in the guise of knowledge. The cities that burned across the country following Floyd’s death were expressions of such a truth, as was the incarceration of the police officers convicted of a crime they did not commit. The scramble to implement race-based policies and quotas, to elevate self-appointed gurus of “antiracism,” and to proclaim, against all evidence, the unreconstructed nature of American society were all tendrils of the same truth, which still threatens to assert itself whenever an incident emerges that fits its preferred pattern.
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
Perhaps it’s fitting, then, that YouTube has deemed this clip from my latest conversation with John McWhorter inappropriate for anyone under the age of 18. Unless you’re 18 or older and logged into your YouTube account, you won’t be able to view it. If you see fit, please share it widely, as the algorithm won’t be doing it any favors. My team considered taking it down and hosting it on Substack instead. But I think it’s better that it stays as it is. Let it bear that mark of censoriousness, the better to remind us that the goal of truth’s suppression is not condemnation but forgetting.
Education is extremely important.
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From my inbox today, from Glenn Loury, a personal friend who often sends me letters:
Link to videoIn the documentary What Killed Michael Brown?, Shelby Steele coins the term “poetic truth” in order to describe the persistence of the myth that Michael Brown was “executed” by Darren Wilson. Steele calls poetic truth, “a distortion of the actual truth that we use to sue for leverage and power in the world. It is a partisan version of reality, a storyline that we put forward to build our case.” Poetic truth “thrives more by coercion than reason,” accusing all who dispute it of complicity with the ineradicably racist system that governs and has always governed the country.
That Darren Wilson executed Michael Brown is one such poetic truth; that Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd is, I believe, another. Despite the aptness of Steele’s term, poetic truth is no truth at all, nor is it particularly poetic. It is power masquerading as fact, brute force in the guise of knowledge. The cities that burned across the country following Floyd’s death were expressions of such a truth, as was the incarceration of the police officers convicted of a crime they did not commit. The scramble to implement race-based policies and quotas, to elevate self-appointed gurus of “antiracism,” and to proclaim, against all evidence, the unreconstructed nature of American society were all tendrils of the same truth, which still threatens to assert itself whenever an incident emerges that fits its preferred pattern.
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
Perhaps it’s fitting, then, that YouTube has deemed this clip from my latest conversation with John McWhorter inappropriate for anyone under the age of 18. Unless you’re 18 or older and logged into your YouTube account, you won’t be able to view it. If you see fit, please share it widely, as the algorithm won’t be doing it any favors. My team considered taking it down and hosting it on Substack instead. But I think it’s better that it stays as it is. Let it bear that mark of censoriousness, the better to remind us that the goal of truth’s suppression is not condemnation but forgetting.
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
This well captures the insidiousness of the "right side of history" folks. The implication of the term is that one is sacrificing current reputation to speak a truth that will be vindicated from a future perspective, as virtuous. But in fact, they are speaking a socially advantageous falsehood, which will be viewed by historians in the future as truth, because they are writing the falsehood into history.
Well, maybe serious academic historians will still know the truth, but popular culture history will not. And popular culture history is unequivocally the history everybody is concerned with being on the right side of.
Education is extremely important.
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I can agree with a negligent homicide verdict.
Second degree murder is a couple of bridges too far.
@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
I can agree with a negligent homicide verdict.
Second degree murder is a couple of bridges too far.
Not under Minnesota law. Murder 2 (unintentional) in Minnesota is similar to Felony Murder in other states. The felony in this case is Assault. Once Floyd is on the ground and in restraints, every moment Chauvin has his knee on his chest or neck is Assault. Felony assault. Floyd’s drug overdose, Sickle Cell, etc.. is irrelevant from that moment. And he held it for 9 fucking minutes.
Chauvin’s a pig in the most pejorative sense, and I am pro-cop. When a cop crosses the line, it needs to be settled severely and publicly.
The Brad
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@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
I can agree with a negligent homicide verdict.
Second degree murder is a couple of bridges too far.
Not under Minnesota law. Murder 2 (unintentional) in Minnesota is similar to Felony Murder in other states. The felony in this case is Assault. Once Floyd is on the ground and in restraints, every moment Chauvin has his knee on his chest or neck is Assault. Felony assault. Floyd’s drug overdose, Sickle Cell, etc.. is irrelevant from that moment. And he held it for 9 fucking minutes.
Chauvin’s a pig in the most pejorative sense, and I am pro-cop. When a cop crosses the line, it needs to be settled severely and publicly.
@LuFins-Dad said in Chauvin shivved:
@Jolly said in Chauvin shivved:
I can agree with a negligent homicide verdict.
Second degree murder is a couple of bridges too far.
Not under Minnesota law. Murder 2 (unintentional) in Minnesota is similar to Felony Murder in other states. The felony in this case is Assault. Once Floyd is on the ground and in restraints, every moment Chauvin has his knee on his chest or neck is Assault. Felony assault. Floyd’s drug overdose, Sickle Cell, etc.. is irrelevant from that moment. And he held it for 9 fucking minutes.
Chauvin’s a pig in the most pejorative sense, and I am pro-cop. When a cop crosses the line, it needs to be settled severely and publicly.
Define restraints.
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Unconscious and handcuffed would count.
The Brad
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@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
This well captures the insidiousness of the "right side of history" folks. The implication of the term is that one is sacrificing current reputation to speak a truth that will be vindicated from a future perspective, as virtuous. But in fact, they are speaking a socially advantageous falsehood, which will be viewed by historians in the future as truth, because they are writing the falsehood into history.
Well, maybe serious academic historians will still know the truth, but popular culture history will not. And popular culture history is unequivocally the history everybody is concerned with being on the right side of.
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
This well captures the insidiousness of the "right side of history" folks. The implication of the term is that one is sacrificing current reputation to speak a truth that will be vindicated from a future perspective, as virtuous. But in fact, they are speaking a socially advantageous falsehood, which will be viewed by historians in the future as truth, because they are writing the falsehood into history.
Well, maybe serious academic historians will still know the truth, but popular culture history will not. And popular culture history is unequivocally the history everybody is concerned with being on the right side of.
What wonderfully well written and intelligent bull shit!
Relating the Brown and Floyd cases is a nonsequitur and plays into the hands of those that want to use the “poetic truth” of the Brown case to justify all of the violence and destruction that occurred from the riots. If you believe in law and order, you cannot lump them in a category. Instead, each and every incident has to be weighed on its merit. Otherwise you grant legitimacy to those that use aggregate numbers instead of individual facts to come to their conclusions,
Michael Brown was a violent criminal that left the officer no choice but to kill him to defend his own life.
Floyd was a violent criminal that was violently killed after having been subdued and incapacitated. Using one to justify the other plays into the hands of those that want to paint all police as murders and racist.
You’re pro law and order? Then condemn Chauvin in the harshest possible manner. He deserves it. And by not doing so, you lend credence to the poetic truth that Brown was a victim.
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@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
This well captures the insidiousness of the "right side of history" folks. The implication of the term is that one is sacrificing current reputation to speak a truth that will be vindicated from a future perspective, as virtuous. But in fact, they are speaking a socially advantageous falsehood, which will be viewed by historians in the future as truth, because they are writing the falsehood into history.
Well, maybe serious academic historians will still know the truth, but popular culture history will not. And popular culture history is unequivocally the history everybody is concerned with being on the right side of.
What wonderfully well written and intelligent bull shit!
Relating the Brown and Floyd cases is a nonsequitur and plays into the hands of those that want to use the “poetic truth” of the Brown case to justify all of the violence and destruction that occurred from the riots. If you believe in law and order, you cannot lump them in a category. Instead, each and every incident has to be weighed on its merit. Otherwise you grant legitimacy to those that use aggregate numbers instead of individual facts to come to their conclusions,
Michael Brown was a violent criminal that left the officer no choice but to kill him to defend his own life.
Floyd was a violent criminal that was violently killed after having been subdued and incapacitated. Using one to justify the other plays into the hands of those that want to paint all police as murders and racist.
You’re pro law and order? Then condemn Chauvin in the harshest possible manner. He deserves it. And by not doing so, you lend credence to the poetic truth that Brown was a victim.
@LuFins-Dad said in Chauvin shivved:
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
@Horace said in Chauvin shivved:
The cost in life, limb, and property incurred by this particular poetic truth would be bad enough. But I fear that, in the aftermath, when the embers have cooled and Chauvin’s name has been forgotten by everyone save his family, the true danger of the poetic truth of George Floyd will come to fruition. It will be written in books alongside uncontroversial facts, treated with the passive acceptance of any other historical occurrence, and absorbed into the storehouse of common knowledge that binds us as a culture. The deep epistemic corruption at the heart of the affair will become, if it goes unchallenged, imperceptible to future generations, simply more evidence that the world is as the poetic truth has determined it to be.
This well captures the insidiousness of the "right side of history" folks. The implication of the term is that one is sacrificing current reputation to speak a truth that will be vindicated from a future perspective, as virtuous. But in fact, they are speaking a socially advantageous falsehood, which will be viewed by historians in the future as truth, because they are writing the falsehood into history.
Well, maybe serious academic historians will still know the truth, but popular culture history will not. And popular culture history is unequivocally the history everybody is concerned with being on the right side of.
What wonderfully well written and intelligent bull shit!
Relating the Brown and Floyd cases is a nonsequitur and plays into the hands of those that want to use the “poetic truth” of the Brown case to justify all of the violence and destruction that occurred from the riots. If you believe in law and order, you cannot lump them in a category. Instead, each and every incident has to be weighed on its merit. Otherwise you grant legitimacy to those that use aggregate numbers instead of individual facts to come to their conclusions,
Michael Brown was a violent criminal that left the officer no choice but to kill him to defend his own life.
Floyd was a violent criminal that was violently killed after having been subdued and incapacitated. Using one to justify the other plays into the hands of those that want to paint all police as murders and racist.
You’re pro law and order? Then condemn Chauvin in the harshest possible manner. He deserves it. And by not doing so, you lend credence to the poetic truth that Brown was a victim.
That all hinges on Chauvin having acted far outside the bounds of acceptable behavior. When in fact, nothing that occurred that day would have given anybody pause, but for the fact that Floyd died. After having ingested a bunch of pills of meth and opiates in order to avoid getting caught with them. There's a reasonable chance he would have died in the back of the squad car, if he'd allowed himself to be put back there. Which he forcibly did not allow.
Education is extremely important.
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Unconscious and handcuffed would count.
@LuFins-Dad said in Chauvin shivved:
Unconscious and handcuffed would count.
State prisoners are not considered fully restrained until they are handcuffed, leg shackled, belted and chained from the leg shackles to the locking belt and handcuffs chained to the locking belt. Usually one guard, sometimes two.
Federal prisoners are similar, although I've seen vests, instead of belts. Always two guards, sometimes three.
Either way, when unchaining a prisoner, the guard in closest proximity hands his duty weapon (loaded) to another guard, or in the case of just one guard, we'd have to call for a second guard.
That is fully restrained.
Guy in handcuffs? Pfft. Seen a prisoner in handcuffs cold cock a deputy. Pissed the deputy off. He shot him.
