Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious"
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
I get your point and there's no denying the West's role in improving societies, but it doesn't do so alone.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
I picked the last millennium for a reason, by the way. The developments of the examples I mentioned occurred outside the "West." And they languished.
@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
No I actually don't. Unless your point is "which civilization has the better model under which its people most thrive." Sure.
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson. Enough from one group doesn't make another's irrelevant. Cultural contributions aren't NBA scores.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
You're making it sound like external influence was a nice-to-have, rather than an essential. I think that's quite wrong.
Please love yourself.
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@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
No I actually don't. Unless your point is "which civilization has the better model under which its people most thrive." Sure.
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson. Enough from one group doesn't make another's irrelevant. Cultural contributions aren't NBA scores.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
You're making it sound like external influence was a nice-to-have, rather than an essential. I think that's quite wrong.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Unless your point is "which civilization has the better model under which its people most thrive." Sure.
That is precisely my point.
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson. Enough from one group doesn't make another's irrelevant.
I never claimed that. My point is that Western civilization's contributions are being ignored, vilified and, dare say, "canceled" while ignoring the fact that there is a mountain of good that has come from it. The same can't be said for other cultures in the last 10 centuries.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Unless your point is "which civilization has the better model under which its people most thrive." Sure.
That is precisely my point.
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson. Enough from one group doesn't make another's irrelevant.
I never claimed that. My point is that Western civilization's contributions are being ignored, vilified and, dare say, "canceled" while ignoring the fact that there is a mountain of good that has come from it. The same can't be said for other cultures in the last 10 centuries.
@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
I never claimed that. My point is that Western civilization's contributions are being ignored, vilified and, dare say, "canceled" while ignoring the fact that there is a mountain of good that has come from it. The same can't be said for other cultures in the last 10 centuries.
Fair enough.
"Look at the West's contributions compared to other civilizations" I believe is a more than valid point per se, but doesn't work as evidence for other civilizations being disposable.
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@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
No I actually don't. Unless your point is "which civilization has the better model under which its people most thrive." Sure.
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson. Enough from one group doesn't make another's irrelevant. Cultural contributions aren't NBA scores.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
You're making it sound like external influence was a nice-to-have, rather than an essential. I think that's quite wrong.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson.
Bad example. Johnson sold his soul to the Devil for his ability.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson.
Bad example. Johnson sold his soul to the Devil for his ability.
@Jolly said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
But Vivaldi doesn't "cancel out" Robert Johnson.
Bad example. Johnson sold his soul to the Devil for his ability.
No he didn't, he disappeared for a couple years and practiced his ass off.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
I get your point and there's no denying the West's role in improving societies, but it doesn't do so alone.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
I picked the last millennium for a reason, by the way. The developments of the examples I mentioned occurred outside the "West." And they languished.
@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
Gershwin was a jazz composer...
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@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
Gershwin was a jazz composer...
@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Gershwin was a jazz composer...
I realize that. And I thought, more than twice, about putting him on the list. However, the "jazz" influences on his music are not as obvious (to me) as ... Miles Davis, Jarrett or others.
I'm just an old geezer, so get off my lawn.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Isn't that enough?
No. It's not. One can agree that jazz, etc is a great outgrowth of cultural expansion. But, it's one thing. If you want to go down that road, for every instance of jazz, I'll give you Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Schubert, Mahler, Clementi, Gerswhin. You get my point.
I get your point and there's no denying the West's role in improving societies, but it doesn't do so alone.
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
I picked the last millennium for a reason, by the way. The developments of the examples I mentioned occurred outside the "West." And they languished.
@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
I picked the last millennium for a reason, by the way. The developments of the examples I mentioned occurred outside the "West." And they languished.
Your argument makes Aqua's case for him. It took both the east and west to turn gunpowder into something more than pretty lights. It took a western thinker along with the arabic numerals to develop our mathematics.
It takes outside influences to keep humanity from getting acclimated and ultimately stagnant in our understanding of the universe around us,
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@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
It did not. But the influence was disproportionately large. Yes, we use Arabic numerals, but it took the likes of Newton to make them mean something. Yes, the Chinese developed gunpowder, but it took Western Civ to make it a tool of war, and ultimately rockets.
I picked the last millennium for a reason, by the way. The developments of the examples I mentioned occurred outside the "West." And they languished.
Your argument makes Aqua's case for him. It took both the east and west to turn gunpowder into something more than pretty lights. It took a western thinker along with the arabic numerals to develop our mathematics.
It takes outside influences to keep humanity from getting acclimated and ultimately stagnant in our understanding of the universe around us,
@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Your argument makes Aqua's case for him. It took both the east and west to turn gunpowder into something more than pretty lights. It took a western thinker along with the arabic numerals to develop our mathematics.
I understand that, and, if you recall, I specifically mentioned the last thousand years. Both of your examples predate that.
"What have you done for me lately?"
It takes outside influences to keep humanity from getting acclimated and ultimately stagnant i
Which is exactly what happened in the first millennium, right?
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@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Your argument makes Aqua's case for him. It took both the east and west to turn gunpowder into something more than pretty lights. It took a western thinker along with the arabic numerals to develop our mathematics.
I understand that, and, if you recall, I specifically mentioned the last thousand years. Both of your examples predate that.
"What have you done for me lately?"
It takes outside influences to keep humanity from getting acclimated and ultimately stagnant i
Which is exactly what happened in the first millennium, right?
@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Your argument makes Aqua's case for him. It took both the east and west to turn gunpowder into something more than pretty lights. It took a western thinker along with the arabic numerals to develop our mathematics.
I understand that, and, if you recall, I specifically mentioned the last thousand years. Both of your examples predate that.
"What have you done for me lately?"
Music, food, stories & entertainment. Y'know, some of the biggest global industries.
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@Mik said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Nails it, as usual.
Speaking of "Western Civ," I remember reading another article/blog about civilization in general.
What great advances have come out of Africa in the last thousand years? What about Asia, the Middle East, or South America?
It's a short list.
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@George-K said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Jazz and the blues.
No, they didn't "come from Africa." But they could not have been made possible without a partial abandonment of Western music theory, and African descendants in America were just the people to do it.
A fair point. I wasn't thinking, being the philistine you know I am, of cultural influences.
But, that's two. Got anything else in the last millennium?
Isn't that enough?
I get your point and there's no denying the West's role in improving societies, but it doesn't do so alone. The correct conclusion isn't "look at the West's rap sheet compared to Africa's—fuck 'em." The point is that actual multiculturalism works better than rigid traditionalism. Updating the model by integrating what works elsewhere rather than just denying anything new forever.
Which we're never going to get back to, because the choices on the table right now are either woke Maoism or MAGA. Neat.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
Which we're never going to get back to, because the choices on the table right now are either woke Maoism or MAGA. Neat.
I'm not much of a MAGA, but given those two choices....
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I tend towards Aqua’s understanding of how civilisations interact and develop. Don’t know why, I just do.
In any event this thread and where it is going made me think Jared Diamond’s book from the ‘90s Guns, Germs and Steel and how external factors shape the evolution of civilisations.
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I don't think the discussion revolves so much around which cultures are better than others so much as it is that Western culture is not the evil it is being portrayed as. All cultures borrow and build on elements from other cultures. That's been a defining facet of the human race.
"The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil
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I think the current habit of portraying Western culture as bad is a reaction against centuries of pretty much ignoring all the other cultures completely.
It's like people complaining about the recent move towards multi-ethnicity in movies. Prior to the recent changes there were decades of all the best characters being played by white actors, with blacks at best getting to play either villains or comic relief, with a very few exceptions.
As far as jazz and blues goes, there's an interesting debate to be had about how the vast majority of all the money got earned by white rock and roll people, again with a few exceptions.
Also, the fact that nobody listens to classical Indian music, or knows anything at all about Eastern poetry or literature is possibly more a reflection of us than it is of their worth.
I was only joking
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Also, jazz is the best example I can think of the success of multiculturalism. It's an American art form, some might say THE American art-form, but it couldn't have been created without African-Americans who by and large were living parallel lives to white America at the time it developed.
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I don't think the discussion revolves so much around which cultures are better than others so much as it is that Western culture is not the evil it is being portrayed as. All cultures borrow and build on elements from other cultures. That's been a defining facet of the human race.
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I think the current habit of portraying Western culture as bad is a reaction against centuries of pretty much ignoring all the other cultures completely.
It's like people complaining about the recent move towards multi-ethnicity in movies. Prior to the recent changes there were decades of all the best characters being played by white actors, with blacks at best getting to play either villains or comic relief, with a very few exceptions.
As far as jazz and blues goes, there's an interesting debate to be had about how the vast majority of all the money got earned by white rock and roll people, again with a few exceptions.
Also, the fact that nobody listens to classical Indian music, or knows anything at all about Eastern poetry or literature is possibly more a reflection of us than it is of their worth.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
I think the current habit of portraying Western culture as bad is a reaction against centuries of pretty much ignoring all the other cultures completely.
It's like people complaining about the recent move towards multi-ethnicity in movies. Prior to the recent changes there were decades of all the best characters being played by white actors, with blacks at best getting to play either villains or comic relief, with a very few exceptions.
As far as jazz and blues goes, there's an interesting debate to be had about how the vast majority of all the money got earned by white rock and roll people, again with a few exceptions.
Also, the fact that nobody listens to classical Indian music, or knows anything at all about Eastern poetry or literature is possibly more a reflection of us than it is of their worth.
A lot of people do listen classical Indian Music. They are mostly Indian… I’ve listened to Indian music, it’s fine. It’s not where I am going to spend my listening dollar. What does that say about me? Nothing except that’s not to my tastes. So what?
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
I think the current habit of portraying Western culture as bad is a reaction against centuries of pretty much ignoring all the other cultures completely.
It's like people complaining about the recent move towards multi-ethnicity in movies. Prior to the recent changes there were decades of all the best characters being played by white actors, with blacks at best getting to play either villains or comic relief, with a very few exceptions.
As far as jazz and blues goes, there's an interesting debate to be had about how the vast majority of all the money got earned by white rock and roll people, again with a few exceptions.
Also, the fact that nobody listens to classical Indian music, or knows anything at all about Eastern poetry or literature is possibly more a reflection of us than it is of their worth.
A lot of people do listen classical Indian Music. They are mostly Indian… I’ve listened to Indian music, it’s fine. It’s not where I am going to spend my listening dollar. What does that say about me? Nothing except that’s not to my tastes. So what?
@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
A lot of people do listen classical Indian Music. They are mostly Indian… I’ve listened to Indian music, it’s fine. It’s not where I am going to spend my listening dollar. What does that say about me? Nothing except that’s not to my tastes. So what?
Well, the question was what has the rest of the world accomplished compared to the west. The fact that we don't like something doesn't mean they haven't accomplished anything. I wasn't being critical of people who don't listen to Indian music, I don't listen to it either.
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@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
A lot of people do listen classical Indian Music. They are mostly Indian… I’ve listened to Indian music, it’s fine. It’s not where I am going to spend my listening dollar. What does that say about me? Nothing except that’s not to my tastes. So what?
Well, the question was what has the rest of the world accomplished compared to the west. The fact that we don't like something doesn't mean they haven't accomplished anything. I wasn't being critical of people who don't listen to Indian music, I don't listen to it either.
@Doctor-Phibes said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
@LuFins-Dad said in Maher - New Rules - "Civ Vicious":
A lot of people do listen classical Indian Music. They are mostly Indian… I’ve listened to Indian music, it’s fine. It’s not where I am going to spend my listening dollar. What does that say about me? Nothing except that’s not to my tastes. So what?
Well, the question was what has the rest of the world accomplished compared to the west. The fact that we don't like something doesn't mean they haven't accomplished anything. I wasn't being critical of people who don't listen to Indian music, I don't listen to it either.
Okay, but the other part of the question was within the last millennium. Indian Classical Music is actually a 4000 year old form.
