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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Equity and a whole lot more.

Equity and a whole lot more.

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  • LuFins DadL Offline
    LuFins DadL Offline
    LuFins Dad
    wrote on last edited by LuFins Dad
    #1

    Link to video

    Well worth the 30 minutes

    The Brad

    1 Reply Last reply
    • HoraceH Offline
      HoraceH Offline
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Good stuff. I was listening this morning to Lindsay's interview with Jordan Peterson, done after this speech.

      It's probably important to keep in mind that proponents of wokeness don't think of it in terms of Marxism (that would have to be explained to them), but the ideology is perfectly compatible.

      Education is extremely important.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • LuFins DadL Offline
        LuFins DadL Offline
        LuFins Dad
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        I found it impressive enough to try listening to Lindsay’s podcast. It was supposed to be about how to attack the movement, but the first 20 minutes were a very bad attempt at trying to explain the Chinese 5 Element Cycle of Creation and Consumption. It went downhill from there. I will try a different podcast and listen to some of his other interviews and debates. But I was EXTREMELY impressed with his citations and the logical and clearly educated and well thought out description of woke idealogy. It reminds me of the Peterson video discussing the Disney executive and deconstruction of the trans movement. Those arguments are the ones we need to get out to the world.

        The Brad

        JonJ 1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Yep. It's the state making things equal, regardless of effort or ability. A recipe for mediocrity and sloth.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          1 Reply Last reply
          • HoraceH Offline
            HoraceH Offline
            Horace
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

            Education is extremely important.

            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Horace

              I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

              I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

              I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

              Please love yourself.

              HoraceH CopperC 2 Replies Last reply
              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                HoraceH Offline
                HoraceH Offline
                Horace
                wrote on last edited by Horace
                #7

                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market. IQ discussions tend to get stuck in the difference between 140 and 120, but the important difference is between 90 and 110. That's where the largest part of the population resides, so that's where the statistics come from.

                Education is extremely important.

                Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                  @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                  I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                  I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                  CopperC Offline
                  CopperC Offline
                  Copper
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                  IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                  They used to say that about race.

                  JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                  • HoraceH Horace

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                    I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                    I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                    If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market. IQ discussions tend to get stuck in the difference between 140 and 120, but the important difference is between 90 and 110. That's where the largest part of the population resides, so that's where the statistics come from.

                    Aqua LetiferA Offline
                    Aqua LetiferA Offline
                    Aqua Letifer
                    wrote on last edited by Aqua Letifer
                    #9

                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                    I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                    I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                    If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                    All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                    But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                    Please love yourself.

                    HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                    • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                      I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                      If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                      All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                      But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                      HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                      I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                      I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                      If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                      All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                      But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                      You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation. You can't acknowledge that one group of people has one mean IQ and another has a different mean IQ, and claim that the difference will be meaningless when you measure aggregate results down the line. That any differences you do see, are attributable to other factors. Those other factors are going to be the conveniently hand wavy 'systemic racism', and where do you suppose that will get us? The only reason we have that logical contortion, is because of the social toxicity of IQ.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                      • CopperC Copper

                        @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                        IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                        They used to say that about race.

                        JollyJ Offline
                        JollyJ Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        @Copper said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                        @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                        IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                        They used to say that about race.

                        Bingo!

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • kluursK Offline
                          kluursK Offline
                          kluurs
                          wrote on last edited by kluurs
                          #12

                          Amy Chua in her book, The Triple Package, provides some additional fodder to this discussion. She explains what aspects of a culture impact success. One element has to do what is expected of one. That is, using Asians and Jewish culture as examples, she notes that these groups work to ensure that their offspring understand that they are expected to do well, i.e. they come from superior stock. A second component is that they must work harder than other people to ensure that they meet those expectations which may seem like a neurotic component to this. Her last point is that impulse control (i.e. some discipline) is key to success. Amy Chua also wrote the book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother describes how she raised her two daughters. She was unbelievably tough on her daughters - but they're both successful - surprise. That book is a fun read.

                          Doctor PhibesD HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
                          • HoraceH Horace

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                            I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                            If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                            All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                            But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                            You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation. You can't acknowledge that one group of people has one mean IQ and another has a different mean IQ, and claim that the difference will be meaningless when you measure aggregate results down the line. That any differences you do see, are attributable to other factors. Those other factors are going to be the conveniently hand wavy 'systemic racism', and where do you suppose that will get us? The only reason we have that logical contortion, is because of the social toxicity of IQ.

                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua LetiferA Offline
                            Aqua Letifer
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                            I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                            I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                            If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                            All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                            But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                            You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation.

                            How many brilliant engineers you know remain brilliant engineers and never get promoted because their social skills are a trainwreck? (How many do get promoted and become walking managerial disasters?) How many not-so-high IQ employees continually get promoted not because of their fluid intelligence, but because of their charisma?

                            The most common crutch of high IQ people is that they know they have a high IQ and mistakenly believe it adequately compensates for other shortcomings.

                            Please love yourself.

                            HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                            • kluursK kluurs

                              Amy Chua in her book, The Triple Package, provides some additional fodder to this discussion. She explains what aspects of a culture impact success. One element has to do what is expected of one. That is, using Asians and Jewish culture as examples, she notes that these groups work to ensure that their offspring understand that they are expected to do well, i.e. they come from superior stock. A second component is that they must work harder than other people to ensure that they meet those expectations which may seem like a neurotic component to this. Her last point is that impulse control (i.e. some discipline) is key to success. Amy Chua also wrote the book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother describes how she raised her two daughters. She was unbelievably tough on her daughters - but they're both successful - surprise. That book is a fun read.

                              Doctor PhibesD Online
                              Doctor PhibesD Online
                              Doctor Phibes
                              wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                              #14

                              @kluurs said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                              Amy Chua in her book, The Triple Package, provides some additional fodder to this discussion. She explains what aspects of a culture impact success. One element has to do what is expected of one. That is, using Asians and Jewish culture as examples, she notes that these groups work to ensure that their offspring understand that they are expected to do well, i.e. they come from superior stock. A second component is that they must work harder than other people to ensure that they meet those expectations which may seem like a neurotic component to this. Her last point is that impulse control (i.e. some discipline) is key to success. Amy Chua also wrote the book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother describes how she raised her two daughters. She was unbelievably tough on her daughters - but they're both successful - surprise. That book is a fun read.

                              It's worth remembering occasionally that highly successful and highly fucked up aren't mutually exclusive. Admittedly, a broader definition of what being successful actually means might be helpful.

                              I was only joking

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                                I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                                If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                                All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                                But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                                You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation.

                                How many brilliant engineers you know remain brilliant engineers and never get promoted because their social skills are a trainwreck? (How many do get promoted and become walking managerial disasters?) How many not-so-high IQ employees continually get promoted not because of their fluid intelligence, but because of their charisma?

                                The most common crutch of high IQ people is that they know they have a high IQ and mistakenly believe it adequately compensates for other shortcomings.

                                HoraceH Offline
                                HoraceH Offline
                                Horace
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                                I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                                If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                                All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                                But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                                You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation.

                                How many brilliant engineers you know remain brilliant engineers and never get promoted because their social skills are a trainwreck? (How many do get promoted and become walking managerial disasters?) How many not-so-high IQ employees continually get promoted not because of their fluid intelligence, but because of their charisma?

                                The most common crutch of high IQ people is that they know they have a high IQ and mistakenly believe it adequately compensates for other shortcomings.

                                Now we're in anecdote land. You have many ways of making IQ meaningless from certain perspectives, which seems to be at odds with your claimed willingness to accept it as a thing that matters. Which is my point. It's socially toxic to a degree that even people who claim to be willing to accept it, aren't actually willing to accept it. This has also played out at the Heterodox academy, where it is third rail, entirely because of its applicability to racial differences (where white europeans are unequivocally not at the top).

                                Education is extremely important.

                                Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                                • kluursK kluurs

                                  Amy Chua in her book, The Triple Package, provides some additional fodder to this discussion. She explains what aspects of a culture impact success. One element has to do what is expected of one. That is, using Asians and Jewish culture as examples, she notes that these groups work to ensure that their offspring understand that they are expected to do well, i.e. they come from superior stock. A second component is that they must work harder than other people to ensure that they meet those expectations which may seem like a neurotic component to this. Her last point is that impulse control (i.e. some discipline) is key to success. Amy Chua also wrote the book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother describes how she raised her two daughters. She was unbelievably tough on her daughters - but they're both successful - surprise. That book is a fun read.

                                  HoraceH Offline
                                  HoraceH Offline
                                  Horace
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  @kluurs said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                  Amy Chua in her book, The Triple Package, provides some additional fodder to this discussion. She explains what aspects of a culture impact success. One element has to do what is expected of one. That is, using Asians and Jewish culture as examples, she notes that these groups work to ensure that their offspring understand that they are expected to do well, i.e. they come from superior stock. A second component is that they must work harder than other people to ensure that they meet those expectations which may seem like a neurotic component to this. Her last point is that impulse control (i.e. some discipline) is key to success. Amy Chua also wrote the book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother describes how she raised her two daughters. She was unbelievably tough on her daughters - but they're both successful - surprise. That book is a fun read.

                                  I like how Chua makes an appearance in Hillbilly Elegy. Random pop culture crossover. There have been many attempts at canceling her.

                                  One of the more prominent myths people accept as true, is the degree to which parenting can create successful people. Bad parenting can create unsuccessful people, but the effect of good parenting, or what we consider good parenting, plateaus quickly. This has been demonstrated, for instance with twin studies where the twins were raised in different homes.

                                  Education is extremely important.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • HoraceH Horace

                                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    I'm fairly convinced that unless we open the IQ can of worms, the only other explanation we'll ever have for group disparities, is systemic racism, and government intervention will be the only solution. But we are so far away from the will to confront the IQ thing.

                                    I don't see why it has to be a third rail. IQ alone won't get anybody anywhere.

                                    If the average IQ in one group is 90 and the average in another group is 110, then there will be significant differences in outcome between the two groups, in an increasingly complex job market.

                                    All other things being equal? Absolutely.

                                    But that's never the case in practice. Pathological cultures, communication skills, toxic management, flexible employees, toxic employees, a shared belief, quiet quitting, the ability to meaningfully apply yourself and about 20 other circumstances make the 90/110 difference completely meaningless on its own.

                                    You can't use the phrase "completely meaningless", and remain serious about the conversation.

                                    How many brilliant engineers you know remain brilliant engineers and never get promoted because their social skills are a trainwreck? (How many do get promoted and become walking managerial disasters?) How many not-so-high IQ employees continually get promoted not because of their fluid intelligence, but because of their charisma?

                                    The most common crutch of high IQ people is that they know they have a high IQ and mistakenly believe it adequately compensates for other shortcomings.

                                    Now we're in anecdote land. You have many ways of making IQ meaningless from certain perspectives, which seems to be at odds with your claimed willingness to accept it as a thing that matters. Which is my point. It's socially toxic to a degree that even people who claim to be willing to accept it, aren't actually willing to accept it. This has also played out at the Heterodox academy, where it is third rail, entirely because of its applicability to racial differences (where white europeans are unequivocally not at the top).

                                    Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                    Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                    Aqua Letifer
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                    You have many ways of making IQ meaningless from certain perspectives, which seems to be at odds with your claimed willingness to accept it as a thing that matters.

                                    Then you're not paying attention carefully enough. Of course IQ matters. A lot. It can't be discounted. But it's not the exclusive deciding factor for professional proficiency or success. There's no such thing. A high-IQ Comic Book Guy who can't relate is going to be hobbled in the workforce, as is the affable low-IQ guy who can't hack it.

                                    Anyone who competently manages others knows this.

                                    Which is my point. It's socially toxic to a degree that even people who claim to be willing to accept it, aren't actually willing to accept it.

                                    What is "it"? That IQ matters? I already said it does. You can't have a conversation about what equality should mean without addressing that. But the same is true for a handful of other traits, too. For those who think IQ does or should negate everything else, well, blaming the wokes for making the world not fit that model would be a rational step, but an incorrect one.

                                    Please love yourself.

                                    HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                      You have many ways of making IQ meaningless from certain perspectives, which seems to be at odds with your claimed willingness to accept it as a thing that matters.

                                      Then you're not paying attention carefully enough. Of course IQ matters. A lot. It can't be discounted. But it's not the exclusive deciding factor for professional proficiency or success. There's no such thing. A high-IQ Comic Book Guy who can't relate is going to be hobbled in the workforce, as is the affable low-IQ guy who can't hack it.

                                      Anyone who competently manages others knows this.

                                      Which is my point. It's socially toxic to a degree that even people who claim to be willing to accept it, aren't actually willing to accept it.

                                      What is "it"? That IQ matters? I already said it does. You can't have a conversation about what equality should mean without addressing that. But the same is true for a handful of other traits, too. For those who think IQ does or should negate everything else, well, blaming the wokes for making the world not fit that model would be a rational step, but an incorrect one.

                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      HoraceH Offline
                                      Horace
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                      @Horace said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                      You have many ways of making IQ meaningless from certain perspectives, which seems to be at odds with your claimed willingness to accept it as a thing that matters.

                                      it's not the exclusive deciding factor for professional proficiency or success. There's no such thing.

                                      Nobody has claimed that, nobody ever does. So why does it appear in your counter argument?

                                      Which is my point. It's socially toxic to a degree that even people who claim to be willing to accept it, aren't actually willing to accept it.

                                      What is "it"? That IQ matters? I already said it does. You can't have a conversation about what equality should mean without addressing that. But the same is true for a handful of other traits, too. For those who think IQ does or should negate everything else, well, blaming the wokes for making the world not fit that model would be a rational step, but an incorrect one.

                                      If those other traits are measurable and different across groups we care about (which are sex and race), then they will be important parts of the equation and should be discussed. If on the other hand they're just random differences that don't have different means between groups, then they're of no value to discuss for the purposes of public policy or received cultural ideas. IQ fits the criteria of being important and measurable and different between groups we care about, and that's why it's important to understand. Cultural factors also fit that criteria, but we see whether CNN wants to discuss families without fathers, for instance. Culture isn't as third rail as IQ, but anything that conflicts with the systemic racism narrative will inevitably be third rail adjacent.

                                      Education is extremely important.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • CopperC Offline
                                        CopperC Offline
                                        Copper
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        People with a high IQ tend to be smart about most things

                                        People with a low IQ tend to not be smart about most things.

                                        Of course the exceptions stick out like sore thumbs and get attention.

                                        Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • CopperC Copper

                                          People with a high IQ tend to be smart about most things

                                          People with a low IQ tend to not be smart about most things.

                                          Of course the exceptions stick out like sore thumbs and get attention.

                                          Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor PhibesD Online
                                          Doctor Phibes
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          @Copper said in Equity and a whole lot more.:

                                          People with a high IQ tend to be smart about most things

                                          People with a low IQ tend to not be smart about most things.

                                          Of course the exceptions stick out like sore thumbs and get attention.

                                          I work on the second floor of a building which has the first floor almost entirely inhabited by people with engineering and science PhD's with a few Master's degrees thrown in. Based on my own personal observations, I would question all of these statements except for the last one.

                                          I was only joking

                                          Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
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