As A Nation, We're Screwed.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
I see both sides. Aqua makes a very good point - people are worshipping a god, just what god is it?
I'm going back to the start of the thread and the WSJ poll...When they are talking religion, they're talking Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim.
I don't think they're framing religion as a belief system, so in that aspect, you're right.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
I think you're stretching the definition of religion too far with that. Not only do most people following the behaviour pattern not believe that is religion, most people involved in traditional religion would agree that it isn't.
You might be better saying that the behaviour is pack-animal related, and religion can be lumped in there, too, along with following sports, music and any number of other behaviour patterns. But nobody would describe being a country music fan as the same as being a sports fan, even though the two mindsets will contain some of the same behavioural characteristics.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
No, it's not. I suppose "religions have belief systems" is one way to describe the difference.
But religion ≠ following codified doctrines taught by a theological governing body, either.
Religion is belief in and worship of some kind of deity, which involves its own customs and practices. Just because most people out there who consider themselves "not religious" do precisely these things on the regular doesn't mean they're not actually religious. It just means they don't know what it is they're actually doing.
It's the language that trips people up. They think they're off the hook because they might, say, describe their desire to make as much money as possible as nothing to do with Sunday mass. That's right, but to many it's still a religious pursuit. They might look up to Saint Peter Thiel, sing his praises on LinkedIn, sacrifice their time and energy at the altar of capitalism and look down on socialists in the same way diehard Christians look down on atheists.
I don't care what language they'd prefer to describe it, it's the exact same shit.
I think you're stretching the definition of religion too far with that. Not only do most people following the behaviour pattern not believe that is religion, most people involved in traditional religion would agree that it isn't.
Yeah, this is covered pretty well in Christianity, too, by the way. Plenty of folks in the Bible are dead wrong about how religious they think they are vs. actually are. It makes a pretty big deal about how worthless empty claims can be.
This is the kind of claim that doesn't help you make any new friends, especially in today's climate, but I'm sorry, when you look at people's actions, it fits.
You claim I'm being way too broad with my use of the word "religion." Yeah, maybe. I could be wrong about all of this, sure. But I'd say that religion's actually much broader than most people think.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
But I fail to see how reason and rationality in and of themselves could be considered religious.
Through the actions people take.
Scientists are religious in that:
- They make serious sacrifices. They don't slaughter prized calfs but they put themselves into serious fucking debt to spend years studying. Not scripture but the scientific method.
- They place their truths above others. I mean obviously they do. If they saw the truths found in movies as more meaningful, virtuous and of greater power, they'd have trained up to become scriptwriters, directors or actors instead.
- They place value judgments on others based on their own beliefs. Making an appeal to dead ancestors, saints or Pharaohs is the fastest way to make a scientist's eyes roll.
- They work in service to a deity. Which for them is something like scientific discovery or reason itself. They see this, however you'd like to describe it, as the only proper model of the world and the source of ultimate good. Which is what deities are.
Yes of course they'd find this preposterous. Which kind of proves my point anyway. My description can't possibly be true because there an only be one source of truth, and that one source sure as hell doesn't sound like this as far as they're aware.
But through their actions, what they say they believe in, how they morally judge others and how they make their sacrifices, it's the same shit.
Works for nihilists, too.
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
That is not to say that there can be no unobservable truths, nor that scientists cannot believe in unobservable truths. Only that the two sorts of truths are orthogonal.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
Please love yourself.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
Not sure I've ever seen a cathedral with stained glass windows of the Stations of the Microscope...
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
I see both sides. Aqua makes a very good point - people are worshipping a god, just what god is it?
I'm going back to the start of the thread and the WSJ poll...When they are talking religion, they're talking Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim.
I don't think they're framing religion as a belief system, so in that aspect, you're right.
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Folks, I appeal to the group at large...
Do you find -in general - that much of what the poll found is true?
I think it's a massive spectrum that aggregate data points oversimplify.
I agree it's a big spectrum, but I think the generalities are reflected in other ways...Look at church attendence. Look at Military recruiting shortfalls. Look at how benevolent and civic organization numbers have dropped.
Aren't those reflections of this trend?
Here's my view on religion, which is ultimate Moonbat bait and probably you'd want to excommunicate me for it, too:
It's not going anywhere.
Okay sure, so younger people don't go to church as much. But they have beliefs. They act on those beliefs, and they place moral judgements of "that's bad" and " this is good" based on those beliefs. It's just that their religion doesn't include Sunday sermons.
If you're a diehard atheist who views organized religion as oppressive, superstitious brainwashing, then you worship at the altar of reason and rationality. Atheists would hate to describe it that way, but in terms of motive action, there's no relevant difference whatsoever.
And you can't tell me liberal fanatics don't have religious zeal.
I don't think we're any less religious than we ever were—we're just worshipping different stuff. Maybe it's the wrong kind of stuff, but we're still making sacrifices to deities and letting our beliefs define our morality for us. That's a different kind of problem than if we weren't actually religious. It's "pick your deity." You don't get to not have one, sorry.
A belief system isn't the same thing as religion.
I see both sides. Aqua makes a very good point - people are worshipping a god, just what god is it?
I think a corollary to the insane shit I'm proposing is that people would be a hell of a lot better off if they'd be more deliberate about which religion they chose to follow. I don't think letting people falsely believe they get to not choose one is doing anyone any favors.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
Not sure I've ever seen a cathedral with stained glass windows of the Stations of the Microscope...
@Jolly said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
Not sure I've ever seen a cathedral with stained glass windows of the Stations of the Microscope...
No, but I'm sure you've been to a shitload of
gatherings of the faithfulsymposia or conferences in whichbishopsthought leaders and experts spoke behindan altara podium toshare the good newsupdate others on the newest techniques and discoveries.And like a Methodist visiting his buddy's Baptist church, you can go in there, learn a few things you think are helpful and still think Christian truths trump what you heard at the conference.
I mean come on, it's the same thing.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
The fact that science can motivate people to act, to gather, to listen, to believe, doesn't mean it's a religion.
Education is extremely important.
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"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
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"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
I don't think science and religion are the same at all, but I'm also not that characterisation of the religious is necessarily what distinguishes them. Plenty of religious people have doubt, and may change their beliefs over time based on their life experience. Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction. Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
I was only joking
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
I don't think science and religion are the same at all, but I'm also not that characterisation of the religious is necessarily what distinguishes them. Plenty of religious people have doubt, and may change their beliefs over time based on their life experience. Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction. Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
I don't think science and religion are the same at all, but I'm also not that characterisation of the religious is necessarily what distinguishes them. Plenty of religious people have doubt, and may change their beliefs over time based on their life experience. Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction. Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
The validity of the definition of a category does not depend on the humans self-identifying as that category, strictly adhering to the definition.
Regarding the Einstein quote, it's really a belief in logic rather than randomness underlying the universe. The study of quantum mechanics would be the pursuit of whatever logic is behind things that look like randomness to our current powers of observation.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
I don't think science and religion are the same at all, but I'm also not that characterisation of the religious is necessarily what distinguishes them. Plenty of religious people have doubt, and may change their beliefs over time based on their life experience. Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction. Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
The validity of the definition of a category does not depend on the humans self-identifying as that category, strictly adhering to the definition.
Regarding the Einstein quote, it's really a belief in logic rather than randomness underlying the universe. The study of quantum mechanics would be the pursuit of whatever logic is behind things that look like randomness to our current powers of observation.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Regarding the Einstein quote, it's really a belief in logic rather than randomness underlying the universe.
Exactly. It's a belief. Not so much in logic, but in order. He didn't like the idea of chaos, which has since been shown to be more important than anybody would have imagined back then.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Regarding the Einstein quote, it's really a belief in logic rather than randomness underlying the universe.
Exactly. It's a belief. Not so much in logic, but in order. He didn't like the idea of chaos, which has since been shown to be more important than anybody would have imagined back then.
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Regarding the Einstein quote, it's really a belief in logic rather than randomness underlying the universe.
Exactly. It's a belief. Not so much in logic, but in order. He didn't like the idea of chaos, which has since been shown to be more important than anybody would have imagined back then.
I don't think anybody believes that Einstein would be doggedly adhering to anything that has been shown to be false. Nor do I think "God doesn't play dice with the universe" has been proven false, if taken in the spirit in which it was said.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
The fact that science can motivate people to act, to gather, to listen, to believe, doesn't mean it's a religion.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
The fact that science can motivate people to act, to gather, to listen, to believe, doesn't mean it's a religion.
No, but it does create moral value judgments, motivate people to act on what they perceive as virtues, and make sacrifices accordingly.
Please love yourself.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
"I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, and I'm willing to concede, if and when observation proves me wrong", is fundamentally what would separate science from religion, to my mind. A scientist, or a self-described rational human being, accepts that piece of humility concerning their beliefs, while a religious person would not accept it.
I don't think science and religion are the same at all, but I'm also not that characterisation of the religious is necessarily what distinguishes them. Plenty of religious people have doubt, and may change their beliefs over time based on their life experience. Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction. Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
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DUPE
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Doctor-Phibes said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
Some scientists will also cling to a belief despite building evidence to the contrary - it's a very human reaction.
That's kind of what I'm trying to say. Religious practices are inescapably human. We've been playing at it for far too long to think we can just throw it away with enlightened thinking.
Some of Einstein's arguments against quantum theory invoked a creator rather than any reasoned thought the process - 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'. Now, this phrase might have been misunderstood, he almost certainly wasn't talking about a literal God, but I think he was basing his rejection of quantum mechanics at least partly on an instinctive dislike of the ideas it raised. He had a belief in the 'order' of nature, the old science, if you like.
I'm not talking about what people say they believe, I'm talking about comparing what they do.
In terms of the morals created around the idea, and the actions and judgements made based on those morals, what's the difference?
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
The fact that science can motivate people to act, to gather, to listen, to believe, doesn't mean it's a religion.
No, but it does create moral value judgments, motivate people to act on what they perceive as virtues, and make sacrifices accordingly.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
No, I mean they apply scientific reasoning to areas in which it makes no sense to do so. They think it applies to everything, and that in their view, there is indeed an unattainable perfect ideal to strive for. Which is part of why I'd consider it religion-as-practice.
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@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
No, I mean they apply scientific reasoning to areas in which it makes no sense to do so. They think it applies to everything, and that in their view, there is indeed an unattainable perfect ideal to strive for. Which is part of why I'd consider it religion-as-practice.
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
No, I mean they apply scientific reasoning to areas in which it makes no sense to do so. They think it applies to everything, and that in their view, there is indeed an unattainable perfect ideal to strive for. Which is part of why I'd consider it religion-as-practice.
If a claim is objectively observable as true or false, then it's subject to scientific inquiry. If a claim is not objectively true or false via observation, then it's not subject to science.
It shouldn't be possible to destroy useful categories and definitions, by going around claiming a thing adheres to that definition, when it actually doesn't. That gives way too much power to people who use words and concepts incorrectly.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
No, I mean they apply scientific reasoning to areas in which it makes no sense to do so. They think it applies to everything, and that in their view, there is indeed an unattainable perfect ideal to strive for. Which is part of why I'd consider it religion-as-practice.
If a claim is objectively observable as true or false, then it's subject to scientific inquiry. If a claim is not objectively true or false via observation, then it's not subject to science.
It shouldn't be possible to destroy useful categories and definitions, by going around claiming a thing adheres to that definition, when it actually doesn't. That gives way too much power to people who use words and concepts incorrectly.
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Aqua-Letifer said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
@Horace said in As A Nation, We're Screwed.:
I think one fundamental disconnect is that science is based on observation, and the belief that scientific truth must be observable. There are no scientific truths that are not subject to change, if observations change.
Sure, that can be part of their belief system. Why not?
I'll try to be more clear about what I mean. When you point to the average medieval European peasant and say, "he was religious," how does this look practically, when analyzing the actions he might take on an average day? What motivated him to do that?
Compare that to what a scientist does on an average day and attach motivations to those actions. There's belief, judgement on himself and others based on his beliefs, sacrifices made, work done in service to being a good
Christianscientist, "saints" to look up to (Tesla maybe, if that's your thing), the less religious to look down on, etc.They're still acting it out. It's just that the details might not have anything to do with Christianity, Judaism, etc.
The analogy seems to break down when you get to the reasons for belief. Religious belief is based on faith which can not be disproven by any conceivable observation, while scientific belief is based on observation and reason, and can be disproven.
I disagree. Scientific reasoning is very often applied to areas and subjects well beyond its scope, and the result is a religious faith argument. This happens regularly here, for example.
That's just a human failing to live up to ideals. I won't argue if your point is that people who claim to be rigorously scientific or rational in their conclusions, are often anything but. That doesn't mean that the claim to scientific reasoning is meaningless.
No, I mean they apply scientific reasoning to areas in which it makes no sense to do so. They think it applies to everything, and that in their view, there is indeed an unattainable perfect ideal to strive for. Which is part of why I'd consider it religion-as-practice.
If a claim is objectively observable as true or false, then it's subject to scientific inquiry. If a claim is not objectively true or false via observation, then it's not subject to science.
Sure, and some folks draw the line there. In which case my mental model does break down a bit. (I'd say not completely, though, because I don't see it as an all or nothing thing. I do think there's a kind of "religious belief" spectrum or whatever you'd like to call it. Some people care about the environment, and some people are religious about it. That latter group very often makes the news but there are quite a few in the middle.)
But not everyone makes that distinction, either. All you have to do is peruse the psychology literature to find very fuzzy examples of "objectively observable as true or false," and they and their colleagues are still part of the medical science wing of their universities.
It shouldn't be possible to destroy useful categories and definitions, by going around claiming a thing adheres to that definition, when it actually doesn't. That gives way too much power to people who use words and concepts incorrectly.
I agree, which is why I tried to be very deliberate about explaining what I was claiming.
It's a massive uphill battle, though, because no one who's scientifically minded wants to entertain the possibility that what they're doing is "religious." It should be a simple matter of looking at how religion can be defined by motive action, and then comparing thoughts and actions of traditionally religious people to those like some scientists who consider themselves not to be, and see if there are similarities. But the very idea is inflammatory to a scientist due to his value systems, worldview and beliefs about what science is. (Which, again, is exactly what Christian fundamentalists do when you try to talk geological records with them, so what's the difference? Outright rejection of ideas considered blasphemous is the realm of religion, not science.)
I think what I'm saying is true enough in terms of what we act out in our lives, but no, not in terms of our opinions about an old man in the clouds who knows everything and judges us. But yeah it's just a hunch, based on personal observations. Quite obviously I haven't tested any of this formally.
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So how does the theory fit a religious scientist?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
