Not in my courtroom...
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Whatever happened to free speech or listening to someone you disagreed with?
https://nypost.com/2023/03/11/trump-appointed-judge-wants-apology-from-stanford-dean/
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So are they canning the DEI Dean that exacerbated everything?
The Brad
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So are they canning the DEI Dean that exacerbated everything?
@LuFins-Dad said in Not in my courtroom...:
So are they canning the DEI Dean that exacerbated everything?
That dean's comments:
""I had to write something down because I am so uncomfortable up here. And I don't say that for sympathy, I just say that I am deeply, deeply uncomfortable," Steinbach said, standing just feet from Duncan in the lecture hall. "I'm uncomfortable because this event is tearing at the fabric of this community that I care about, and I'm here to support."
"I have to ask myself … is the juice worth the squeeze? Is this worth it?"
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Maybe ChatGPT won’t be so bad…
@LuFins-Dad said in Not in my courtroom...:
Maybe ChatGPT won’t be so bad…
Like the Dean, it will depend on how it’s been programmed.
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@LuFins-Dad said in Not in my courtroom...:
Maybe ChatGPT won’t be so bad…
Like the Dean, it will depend on how it’s been programmed.
@Mik said in Not in my courtroom...:
@LuFins-Dad said in Not in my courtroom...:
Maybe ChatGPT won’t be so bad…
Like the Dean, it will depend on how it’s been programmed.
Yup.
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The protesters weren’t upset by the subject of my talk—a rather dry discourse on how circuit courts interact with the Supreme Court in times of doctrinal flux. Rather, I was their target. While in practice, I represented clients and advanced arguments the protesters hate—for instance, I defended Louisiana’s traditional marriage laws. As for my judicial decisions, among the several hundred I’ve written, the protesters were especially vexed by U.S. v. Varner. A federal prisoner serving a term for attempted receipt of child pornography (and with a previous state conviction for possession of child porn) petitioned our court to order that he be called by feminine pronouns. As my opinion explained, federal courts can’t control what pronouns people use. The Stanford protesters saw it differently: My opinion had “denied a transwoman’s existence.”
Two days later, Jenny Martinez and Marc Tessier-Lavinge, respectively the law school’s dean and the university’s president, formally apologized, confirming that protesters and administrators had violated Stanford policy. I’m grateful and I accepted. The matter hasn’t dropped, though. This week, nearly one-third of Stanford law students continued the protest—donning masks, wearing black, and forming a “human corridor” inside the school. They weren’t protesting me; I’m long gone. They were protesting Ms. Martinez for having apologized to me.
The most disturbing aspect of this shameful debacle is what it says about the state of legal education. Stanford is an elite law school. The protesters showed not the foggiest grasp of the basic concepts of legal discourse: That one must meet reason with reason, not power. That jeering contempt is the opposite of persuasion. That the law protects the speaker from the mob, not the mob from the speaker. Worst of all, Ms. Steinbach’s remarks made clear she is proud that Stanford students are being taught this is the way law should be.
I have been criticized in the media for getting angry at the protesters. It’s true I called them “appalling idiots,” “bullies” and “hypocrites.” They are, and I won’t apologize for saying so. Sometimes anger is the proper response to vicious behavior.
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@George-K said in Not in my courtroom...:
Ken White:
https://popehat.substack.com/p/hating-everyone-everywhere-all-at
Nope, he's assigning blame like a fertilizer spreader and it's bullshit. Doesn't matter who the speaker was...Don't like the person? Protest peacefully.
But college, or in this case, law school, should be a place where you learn to think. The best way to stimulate thought is by debating ideas. And the best way to encounter new ideas is by listening to people who are sharing new ideas.
Debate them, accept them, modify them or reject them...That is the student's job. The speaker's job is to interject the idea, controversial or not, into the discussion.
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@George-K said in Not in my courtroom...:
Ken White:
https://popehat.substack.com/p/hating-everyone-everywhere-all-at
Nope, he's assigning blame like a fertilizer spreader and it's bullshit. Doesn't matter who the speaker was...Don't like the person? Protest peacefully.
But college, or in this case, law school, should be a place where you learn to think. The best way to stimulate thought is by debating ideas. And the best way to encounter new ideas is by listening to people who are sharing new ideas.
Debate them, accept them, modify them or reject them...That is the student's job. The speaker's job is to interject the idea, controversial or not, into the discussion.
@Jolly said in Not in my courtroom...:
Nope, he's assigning blame like a fertilizer spreader and it's bullshit.
Interestingly, in the very opening of his article he assigns blame to the Federalist Society for having Duncan speak, because....Trump.
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He got invited because he’s controversial. His invitation was a statement by FedSoc members to fellow students and America. If you’re feeling charitable the statement was “we defy groupthink and dare to consider unpopular ideas and modern blasphemies.” If you’re feeling uncharitable — or, in my view, realistic — the message was “lol, fuck you.”
The point Mr Popehat glides past, without recognition, is that the leftists take it as a 'fuck you' when their groupthink is defied and unpopular modern blasphemies are considered. The "fuck you" is unavoidable, because it is of their creation. Any reasonable person who contradicts their orthodoxy in the culture wars, will be categorized as a contrarian, rabble rousing right wing troll. Go ahead and name a single conservative participant in the cultural conversation who isn't labeled that way. Look what happens with Jordan Peterson. There is no such thing as a person who expresses opinions against woke culture who would not be categorized dismissively as a "right wing culture warrior". "Reasonable centrists" like Mr Popehat engage in their useful idiocy, and happily concede the language territory.
Everyone in this story makes me angry.
Judge Duncan is part of a culture of turning the federal judiciary into a conservative grievance LiveJournal. He’s also part of a pathetic culture of conservative victimology and free-speech hucksterism. The American right is trumpeting a purported concern for freedom of speech, based mostly on cries of “cancel culture” and gripes about how other people are using their free speech and association, while campaigning vigorously to use government force to limit speech they don’t like. The Federalist Society is complicit, off the bench and on it.
The right-wing media (check out the links in item 6 on David Lat's update) is campaigning to make money and clicks off of that conservative victimology. In the process it’s undermining everything that was ever admirable or worthwhile about American conservatism and making it into a cult of crybabies. Meanwhile, it’s torpedoing whatever American consensus we’ve ever had in favor of free speech values, conveying to half of America’s youth that free speech is cynical bullshit and to the other half that it’s a bludgeon to own the libs.
So when the left infects the culture to the degree that being conservative out loud in school is considered a "fuck you", the conservatives become just as bad as the libs, if they point that out and use it to rally support. Mr Popehat holds conservatives to an impossible standard, and in fact a standard which would guarantee cultural annihilation.
As Jolly notes, this case is really pretty clear, and it doesn't do any good to zoom out until you can include some bad acting conservatives in your story. Unless you want to impress on your dear readers that you aren't actually taking the conservatives' side. The piece was lazy and uncourageous, which is to be expected from a podcaster and writer who needs to appeal to his left leaning but not completely indoctrinated audience.
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I wonder what Popehat had to say about Biden's thinly veiled prerequisite for his supreme court nomination, that they be an avowed leftist. He appears to think college groups inviting judges to speak based on those judge's cultural opinions, is petulant and non-serious. I wonder if he had any negative words to say about that now sitting member of our supreme court and her cultural qualifications for her invite.
Just kidding, I can surmise about Popehat all I need to know, from reading that piece. He said nothing negative about that nomination. He's another of the legion of self described centrists who wouldn't be caught dead sniffing of a conservative tribal affiliation, and who are more than happy to sniff of a leftist tribal affiliation.
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Dean Steinbach replies:
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Diversity and Free Speech Can Coexist at Stanford
We have to stop blaming, start listening, and ask ourselves: Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Stanford Law School’s chapter of the Federalist Society earlier this month invited Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Kyle Duncan to speak on campus. Student groups that vehemently opposed Judge Duncan’s prior advocacy and judicial decisions regarding same-sex marriage, immigration, trans people, abortion and other issues showed up to protest. Some protesters heckled the judge and peppered him with questions and comments. Judge Duncan answered in turn. Regardless of where you stand politically, none of this heated exchange was helpful for civil discourse or productive dialogue.
Students involved in the protest had previously requested that the event be canceled or moved to Zoom. In my role as Stanford Law School’s associate dean for diversity, equity and inclusion, I supported the administration’s decision not to cancel the event or move it to video, as it would censor or limit the free speech of Judge Duncan and the students who invited him. Instead, the administration and I welcomed Judge Duncan to speak while supporting the right of students to protest within the bounds of university policy.
As a member of the Stanford Law School administration—and as a lawyer—I believe that we should strive for authentic free speech. We must strive for an environment in which we meet speech—even that with which we strongly disagree—with more speech, not censorship.
My participation at the event with Judge Duncan has been widely discussed. I was asked to attend the event by the Federalist Society, the organizers of the student protest and the administration. My role was to observe and, if needed, de-escalate.
NEWSLETTER SIGN-UP
As soon as Judge Duncan entered the room, a verbal sparring match began to take place between the judge and the protesters. By the time Judge Duncan asked for an administrator to intervene, tempers in the room were heated on both sides.
I stepped up to the podium to deploy the de-escalation techniques in which I have been trained, which include getting the parties to look past conflict and see each other as people. My intention wasn’t to confront Judge Duncan or the protesters but to give voice to the students so that they could stop shouting and engage in respectful dialogue. I wanted Judge Duncan to understand why some students were protesting his presence on campus and for the students to understand why it was important that the judge be not only allowed but welcomed to speak.
To defuse the situation I acknowledged the protesters’ concerns; I addressed the Federalist Society’s purpose for inviting Judge Duncan and the law school’s desire to uphold its right to do so; I reminded students that there would a Q&A session at which they could answer Judge Duncan’s speech with their own speech, as long as they were following university rules; and I pointed out that while free speech isn’t easy or comfortable, it’s necessary for democracy, and I was glad it was happening at our law school.
At one point during the event, I asked Judge Duncan, “Is the juice worth the squeeze?” I was referring to the responsibility that comes with freedom of speech: to consider not only the benefit of our words but also the consequences. It isn’t a rhetorical question. I believe that we would be better served by leaders who ask themselves, “Is the juice (what we are doing) worth the squeeze (the intended and unintended consequences and costs)?” I will certainly continue to ask this question myself.
What happened in that room is a microcosm of how polarized our society has become, and it raises important questions: How do we listen and talk to each other as people, not with partisan talking points? How might we start to hear the name-calling, anger, frustration and fury for what it is—people who are unhappy about the way things are and are looking for someone to be held accountable? Is there a way that we can stop blaming and start to talk and listen to each other?
Whenever and wherever we can, we must de-escalate the divisive discourse to have thoughtful conversations and find common ground. Free speech, academic freedom and work to advance diversity, equity and inclusion must coexist in a diverse, democratic society.
Diversity, equity and inclusion plans must have clear goals that lead to greater inclusion and belonging for all community members. How we strike a balance between free speech and diversity, equity and inclusion is worthy of serious, thoughtful and civil discussion. Free speech and diversity, equity and inclusion are means to an end, and one that I think many people can actually agree on: to live in a country with liberty and justice for all its people.
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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Dean Steinbach replies:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Diversity and Free Speech Can Coexist at Stanford
We have to stop blaming, start listening, and ask ourselves: Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Stanford Law School’s chapter of the Federalist Society earlier this month invited Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Kyle Duncan to speak on campus. Student groups that vehemently opposed Judge Duncan’s prior advocacy and judicial decisions regarding same-sex marriage, immigration, trans people, abortion and other issues showed up to protest. Some protesters heckled the judge and peppered him with questions and comments. Judge Duncan answered in turn. Regardless of where you stand politically, none of this heated exchange was helpful for civil discourse or productive dialogue.
Students involved in the protest had previously requested that the event be canceled or moved to Zoom. In my role as Stanford Law School’s associate dean for diversity, equity and inclusion, I supported the administration’s decision not to cancel the event or move it to video, as it would censor or limit the free speech of Judge Duncan and the students who invited him. Instead, the administration and I welcomed Judge Duncan to speak while supporting the right of students to protest within the bounds of university policy.
As a member of the Stanford Law School administration—and as a lawyer—I believe that we should strive for authentic free speech. We must strive for an environment in which we meet speech—even that with which we strongly disagree—with more speech, not censorship.
My participation at the event with Judge Duncan has been widely discussed. I was asked to attend the event by the Federalist Society, the organizers of the student protest and the administration. My role was to observe and, if needed, de-escalate.
NEWSLETTER SIGN-UP
As soon as Judge Duncan entered the room, a verbal sparring match began to take place between the judge and the protesters. By the time Judge Duncan asked for an administrator to intervene, tempers in the room were heated on both sides.
I stepped up to the podium to deploy the de-escalation techniques in which I have been trained, which include getting the parties to look past conflict and see each other as people. My intention wasn’t to confront Judge Duncan or the protesters but to give voice to the students so that they could stop shouting and engage in respectful dialogue. I wanted Judge Duncan to understand why some students were protesting his presence on campus and for the students to understand why it was important that the judge be not only allowed but welcomed to speak.
To defuse the situation I acknowledged the protesters’ concerns; I addressed the Federalist Society’s purpose for inviting Judge Duncan and the law school’s desire to uphold its right to do so; I reminded students that there would a Q&A session at which they could answer Judge Duncan’s speech with their own speech, as long as they were following university rules; and I pointed out that while free speech isn’t easy or comfortable, it’s necessary for democracy, and I was glad it was happening at our law school.
At one point during the event, I asked Judge Duncan, “Is the juice worth the squeeze?” I was referring to the responsibility that comes with freedom of speech: to consider not only the benefit of our words but also the consequences. It isn’t a rhetorical question. I believe that we would be better served by leaders who ask themselves, “Is the juice (what we are doing) worth the squeeze (the intended and unintended consequences and costs)?” I will certainly continue to ask this question myself.
What happened in that room is a microcosm of how polarized our society has become, and it raises important questions: How do we listen and talk to each other as people, not with partisan talking points? How might we start to hear the name-calling, anger, frustration and fury for what it is—people who are unhappy about the way things are and are looking for someone to be held accountable? Is there a way that we can stop blaming and start to talk and listen to each other?
Whenever and wherever we can, we must de-escalate the divisive discourse to have thoughtful conversations and find common ground. Free speech, academic freedom and work to advance diversity, equity and inclusion must coexist in a diverse, democratic society.
Diversity, equity and inclusion plans must have clear goals that lead to greater inclusion and belonging for all community members. How we strike a balance between free speech and diversity, equity and inclusion is worthy of serious, thoughtful and civil discussion. Free speech and diversity, equity and inclusion are means to an end, and one that I think many people can actually agree on: to live in a country with liberty and justice for all its people.
@George-K said in Not in my courtroom...:
As soon as Judge Duncan entered the room, a verbal sparring match began to take place between the judge and the protesters. By the time Judge Duncan asked for an administrator to intervene, tempers in the room were heated on both sides.
The judge started it. Literally as soon as he entered the room, he was already white and male. Gross.
Good for the students, for fighting back against his whitey maleyness.
