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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • MikM Mik

    Good idea. Plausible deniability for Ukraine.

    RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by Renauda
    #1441

    @Mik

    Not sure if plausible deniability matters in this case, or even exists in that part of world. The Russians seem to have gotten implausible deniability down to a matter of routine statecraft.

    Elbows up!

    George KG 1 Reply Last reply
    • RenaudaR Renauda

      @Mik

      Not sure if plausible deniability matters in this case, or even exists in that part of world. The Russians seem to have gotten implausible deniability down to a matter of routine statecraft.

      George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by
      #1442

      @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

      The Russians seem to have gotten implausible deniability down to a matter of routine statecraft.

      alt text

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • RenaudaR Offline
        RenaudaR Offline
        Renauda
        wrote on last edited by
        #1443

        This got hardly any coverage last week. Good for the Latvians! Not often a diplomat tells the Russians to go fuck themselves:

        https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/osce-pa-latvian-delegate-reminded-russia-about-its-warship-as-its-destination/

        Elbows up!

        1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #1444

          Nice.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          1 Reply Last reply
          • W Offline
            W Offline
            Wim
            wrote on last edited by
            #1445

            Haha

            https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/putins-naked-general-blamed-humiliating-29329547

            George KG 1 Reply Last reply
            • W Wim

              Haha

              https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/putins-naked-general-blamed-humiliating-29329547

              George KG Offline
              George KG Offline
              George K
              wrote on last edited by
              #1446

              @Wim said in The Ukraine war thread:

              Haha

              https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/putins-naked-general-blamed-humiliating-29329547

              Now there's a bunch of words I never thought I'd see together in one story:

              Russian
              Naked
              General

              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                #1447

                For nearly a year now, Ukraine and the West have been waiting for an open rebellion from an abstract notion of the Russian people against their government. Yet there have been no major protests in Russia, never mind anything approaching a mass uprising, nor is there any sign of one on the horizon, despite a great many examples of individual resistance, as evidenced by the number of prosecutions for anti-war statements and activity. On the contrary, support for the country’s leadership is if anything becoming more aggressive, while people’s indifference and ability to adapt are increasingly striking.

                Searching for the reasons for this passive acceptance of a vicious war against a neighboring country brings to mind an old Soviet joke in which the Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev boasts to his U.S. counterpart that the Soviet people will put up with anything, and will never rebel against Communism. To make his point, he announces several unpopular measures to an accepting crowd, culminating in the announcement that they will all be hanged the next day. Finally, there is a reaction from the crowd, when a timid voice asks: “Should we bring the rope ourselves, or will the trade union provide it?”

                https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88938

                Elbows up!

                1 Reply Last reply
                • George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #1448

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • George KG Offline
                    George KG Offline
                    George K
                    wrote on last edited by George K
                    #1449

                    Russia’s Winter Offensive Is Criminally Incompetent

                    (tl;dr - lack of leadership throughout - "shockingly unimaginative")

                    Even for an army long known for how casually it values the lives of its soldiers, the Russians seem to be taking things to a new level.

                    In the midst of the long-rumored Russian winter offensive — yes, it’s here, despite its underwhelming nature — the Russians have resorted to shockingly unimaginative tactics: They’re throwing mobilized conscripts at prepared Ukrainian defensive positions. When that doesn’t work, the Russian commanders throw more conscripts at the trenches.

                    The New York Times‘ Andrew Kramer, reporting from Lyman, Ukraine, writes:

                    A year into the war in Ukraine, the Russian military has suffered staggering losses — as many as 200,000 troops killed or wounded, Western officials say, and thousands of tanks and armored vehicles destroyed or captured by Ukraine. Russia is running low on artillery shells and cruise missiles, and is having trouble replenishing its stocks because of Western sanctions. Many of its most elite, best-trained and experienced units have been decimated, left in a shambles that experts say will probably take years, rather than months, to recover from.

                    In their places, Russia is being forced to rely on tens of thousands of newly conscripted soldiers rushed to the front with little time for instruction. Their inexperience was evident to Diesel from what he saw on the battlefield. “By how they move,” he said, “I see they are not professional.”

                    The problem for the Russians can be boiled down to leadership.

                    The Russians never had much of it at the small-unit level, and what little they did have was attrited during the disastrous early lunges into Ukraine. As I have written before, the post-Soviet Russian army has always lacked a professional NCO corps, which meant that small-unit leadership roles that would be owned by NCOs in a Western army were filled by junior officers. Unfortunately for the average Russian conscript, many of the best trained young Russian officers didn’t survive 2022.

                    A good military officer or NCO must always be ready to order his men to their deaths. It’s part of the job, and that burden of command rests heavily on anyone placed in a position of military leadership. American officers are tutored to respond to that burden by holding their soldiers’ lives second only to the mission. Preparation, hard training, and a brotherly commitment to each other is the salve that may in some measure absolve the commander of the weight he must bear in knowing that his men died or were wounded on his watch. But this is a very hard thing to endure. As Michael Shara had Robert E. Lee say in the novel Killer Angels, “To be a good soldier you must love the army. But to be a good officer you must be willing to order the death of the thing you love.”

                    It’s hard to argue, however, after watching the way in which they’re operating, that the Russian commanders love their men. As Kramer writes in a second report from the front lines, describing a criminally amateurish mechanized assault by the Russians up a road:

                    [Ukranian] anti-tank teams hiding in tree lines along the fields, and armed with American infrared-guided Javelins and Ukrainian laser-guided Stugna-P missiles, powered up their weapons. Farther away, artillery batteries were ready. The dirt road had been left free of mines, while the fields all about were seeded with them, so as to entice the Russians to advance while preventing tanks from turning around once the trap was sprung.

                    The column of tanks becomes most vulnerable, Lieutenant Bayak said, after the shooting starts and drivers panic and try to turn around — by driving onto the mine-laden shoulder of the road. Blown-up vehicles then act as impediments, slowing or stalling the column. At that point, Ukrainian artillery opens fire, blowing up more armor and killing soldiers who clamber out of disabled machines. A scene of chaos and explosions ensues, the lieutenant said.

                    In the parlance of the U.S. Marine Corps, these Russians have chosen “comfort-based decisions” — the path of least resistance. Again, this is far more a leadership failure than a tactical one. A good leader — a leader who knew what he was doing and loved his men –would have found another way.

                    It’s hard to see how any of this will get better for the Russians. Last fall’s mobilization appears to have largely failed in its strategic objectives. Yes, the Russian high command has managed to pull a couple of hundred thousand civilians into the army and push them into Ukraine. But there is scant evidence that the average conscript received the training that would be commensurate with the task at hand.

                    Good training for modern war is, as any veteran will tell you, incredibly difficult to achieve. For well-planned and executed training, the logistical, ammunition, and cognitive requirements are immense. Hard, realistic military exercises require that units be put into incredibly demanding tactical scenarios in which leaders at all levels are forced to make decisions.

                    Critically, a cadre of experienced soldiers and instructors must be present to evaluate a unit or a leader’s performance and correct and instruct it into better practices. Units and commanders must be must be allowed to fail.

                    A failure to correct bad habits only reinforces them — and those habits are often the hallmark of inexperienced troops and the type of things that get them killed.

                    It shouldn’t be any surprise that this type of training didn’t happen late last fall and winter in the Russian interior. As the days grew short and cold, most conscripts called to duty do not appear to have received much training beyond weapons familiarization. There were likely very few experienced instructors and evaluators around. After all, with a shortage to begin with and a dire need for experience at the front, where would they have come from?

                    The Russian winter offensive, such as it is, will likely go on for a few more weeks, throwing thousands of men at Ukrainian positions. Their mass will likely win a few crossroads and villages. But the Russian army is in no shape to exploit a breakout.

                    Worse, the more they casually attrit their men, the more vulnerable the Russian army will be to a Ukrainian counterattack.

                    If last year’s counterattacks are to be the model, the Ukrainians are not going to be casual about things at all.

                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Offline
                      MikM Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #1450

                      So many people dying horribly for nothing.

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • W Offline
                        W Offline
                        Wim
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #1451

                        (a) Story of the pot and the kettle

                        https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/02/moscow-says-clashed-with-ukrainian-saboteurs-in-russian-border-region-a80377

                        MikM 1 Reply Last reply
                        • W Wim

                          (a) Story of the pot and the kettle

                          https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/02/moscow-says-clashed-with-ukrainian-saboteurs-in-russian-border-region-a80377

                          MikM Offline
                          MikM Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #1452

                          @Wim Orwellian.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          RenaudaR George KG 2 Replies Last reply
                          • MikM Mik

                            @Wim Orwellian.

                            RenaudaR Offline
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #1453

                            @Mik

                            Orwellian of course, but also a perfect example of Russian exceptionalism. How dare those Ukrainian Nazis!

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • MikM Mik

                              @Wim Orwellian.

                              George KG Offline
                              George KG Offline
                              George K
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #1454

                              @Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              Orwellian.

                              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                              RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                              • George KG George K

                                @Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                Orwellian.

                                RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                #1455

                                @George-K

                                The sad part about it is that Lavrov believes his own lies.

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • RenaudaR Offline
                                  RenaudaR Offline
                                  Renauda
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #1456

                                  Wagner Group open youth club in St. Petersburg to foster patriotism and prep for war:

                                  https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/03/03/russias-wagner-mercenary-group-launches-youth-club-in-st-petersburg-a80387

                                  In Soviet times it was referred to as Komsomol, or league of young communists. This time round I guess it could be called The Prigozhin Youth.

                                  Quite the fiefdom within the kingdom the current Tsar’s favourite is building.

                                  Elbows up!

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #1457

                                    Interesting comments in Russian TV:

                                    Elbows up!

                                    George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • RenaudaR Renauda

                                      Interesting comments in Russian TV:

                                      George KG Offline
                                      George KG Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #1458

                                      @Renauda well, that's certainly interesting.

                                      Do you think that this discussion came with approval from higher-up, or is it more likely that this commentator will suffer an unfortunate fall from an open window?

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • George KG George K

                                        @Renauda well, that's certainly interesting.

                                        Do you think that this discussion came with approval from higher-up, or is it more likely that this commentator will suffer an unfortunate fall from an open window?

                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        Renauda
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #1459

                                        @George-K

                                        Difficult to say. It is only a snippet from the show and it could be a part of a patriotic rant.

                                        Elbows up!

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Offline
                                          MikM Offline
                                          Mik
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #1460

                                          Crazy talk from Medvedev. Designed in hopes to make the west think twice?

                                          https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/medvedev-russia-may-have-to-push-back-poland-s-border-for-peace/ss-AA184Ltk?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b62b69954c544d6c92ae970948095094&ei=11#image=1

                                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
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