Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2

[Renauda]

@George-K

Well diplomacy hasn’t worked with Russia. Appeasement will only encourage continued bad behaviour in future. Doesn’t leave much else in the toolbox short of regime change. Don’t think anyone has the desire for the unintended consequences of that option.

So containment via economic sanction and political isolation remain the only practicable options in addition to material and technical support of Ukraine we have at the moment.

[Jolly]

The support for Ukraine may slow with a coming recession.

[Renauda]

@Jolly

Make no mistake, the Kremlin is banking on it.

[Mik]

Compared to the trillions of dollars we poured own the rathole in the past three years, Ukraine aid is a bargain, and actually goes toward an end we want. A vitally important one.

Putin stuck his dick in the meat grinder. Let's make sure he can't pull it back out unharmed, much less be rewarded for it.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

The support for Ukraine may slow with a coming recession.

True, but I was mostly concerned about the appeasement/Putin fanboi wing of the GOP getting too much power. With the MAGA implosion that doesn’t seem to have happened.

[Renauda]

@Mik said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

Compared to the trillions of dollars we poured own the rathole in the past three years, Ukraine aid is a bargain, and actually goes toward an end we want. A vitally important one.

Putin stuck his dick in the meat grinder. Let's make sure he can't pull it back out unharmed, much less be rewarded for it.

It is a deal as we cannot afford to appease Putin’s imperial obsessions. Ukrainians are willing to fight to the last person to defend their country from Putin’s horde. All they want from us is consistent political, material and technical support as practicable.

[Renauda]

@jon-nyc

Regardless of the outcome that is a legitimate concern. There’s still the Carlson/Gabbard tag team fanboi/appeasers out there.

[George K]

@Renauda said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@jon-nyc

Regardless of the outcome that is a legitimate concern. There’s still the Carlson/Gabbard tag team fanboi/appeasers out there.

I'm not sure if I'd characterize either them as "fanbois." Support skeptics, to be sure, but fans of Putin? I don't think so.

[Renauda]

@George-K

Okay, maybe not fanbois. However their support scepticism is derived from John Mearsheimer who is calling for the appeasement of Putin in all fronts.

[Mik]

Here's his picture.

[Jolly]

@George-K said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@Renauda said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@jon-nyc

Regardless of the outcome that is a legitimate concern. There’s still the Carlson/Gabbard tag team fanboi/appeasers out there.

I'm not sure if I'd characterize either them as "fanbois." Support skeptics, to be sure, but fans of Putin? I don't think so.

Skeptical from an America First perspective. Entanglements in foreign wars, etc...

[Jolly]

@Mik said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

Compared to the trillions of dollars we poured own the rathole in the past three years, Ukraine aid is a bargain, and actually goes toward an end we want. A vitally important one.

Putin stuck his dick in the meat grinder. Let's make sure he can't pull it back out unharmed, much less be rewarded for it.

Here's the problem: Money and weapons stockpiles.

Money, we print. Weapons, not so much. I've seen some estimates it'll take us three years to catch up our inventories.

Mr. Biden knows this.

[Mik]

Pick your poison.

[Jolly]

Yeah, but don't let the Chinese pick it.

[Renauda]

@Jolly

I've seen some estimates it'll take us three years to catch up our inventories.

How credible are the sources and estimates?

Here’s one and it seems credible. It also suggests that matters are in hand and are being addressed:

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2022/11/18/the-precarious-state-of-us-defense-stockpiles

[Jolly]

@Renauda said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@Jolly

I've seen some estimates it'll take us three years to catch up our inventories.

How credible are the sources and estimates?

Here’s one and it seems credible. It also suggests that matters are in hand and are being addressed:

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2022/11/18/the-precarious-state-of-us-defense-stockpiles

In the article you are citing, it talks about 36 month continuous production, non-competitive contracts...That's three years production. And it also says some Stinger components are not even available, pushing any Stinger manufacturing to sometime in 2023.

I'm not sure if the numbers cited in the article take into account a constant flow of munitions to Ukraine, or anything to Taiwan.

[Mik]

@Jolly said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

Yeah, but don't let the Chinese pick it.

I suspect the Chinese are taking a very long look at the economic and political consequences of Russia's invasion, and western solidarity. I doubt they wish to experience something similar.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@George-K said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@Renauda said in Leaks in the pipeline - Nord Stream 1 & 2:

@jon-nyc

Regardless of the outcome that is a legitimate concern. There’s still the Carlson/Gabbard tag team fanboi/appeasers out there.

I'm not sure if I'd characterize either them as "fanbois." Support skeptics, to be sure, but fans of Putin? I don't think so.

Skeptical from an America First perspective. Entanglements in foreign wars, etc...

That was the GOP’s precise argument for not standing up to Hitler, right down to the branding.

[Renauda]

@Jolly

I get that.

So how else do you propose Putin is contained and kept out of expanding deeper into Eastern and ultimately into the Baltics and Central Europe? Contrary to Kremlin propaganda, Putin has no intention to accept any terms with Ukraine short of total capitulation and forfeiture of national sovereignty.

Not unlike Chamberlain’s dilemma in 1938. He could have made a deal with Stalin to protect Czechoslovakia from Hitler. Behind the scenes Britain, France, Czechoslovakia and the USSR discussed this. It didn’t happen though, because neither Britain or France knew how to get Stalin out of Central Europe once he was there.

Of course present day situation is very different. Not least because Ukraine is willing to fight to the last person to remain sovereign and independent of Moscow. Too bad, because the Ukrainians are following the example of the Poles in 1939 when first Hitler then Stalin, two weeks later, wiped their country off the map of Europe.

[Jolly]

I think we need to take a really hard look at what it takes to keep Ukraine supplied. A lot of their equipment is Soviet or Russian based and I think the former Soviet Bloc countries should divest themselves of anything left that's decent and send it to Ukraine. That means that NATO has to do a couple of things:

1. We have to resupply with NATO-friendly weapons any of the weapons those former Soviet satellites are donating, with an eye on as much standardization as possible. We also have to continue to supply Ukraine with munitions and parts for those Western armaments already in country.

2. We also have to have a coordinated NATO effort to manufacture what is needed. Maybe Turkey takes the lead in small arms. Germany makes some pretty good mobile artillery. Scandinavia makes good fighter jets and Britain's Challenger is a very, very good tank. The U.S. has Stingers, smart rounds, F-16's, etc. It's going to take everybody working together in both funding and production to pull this off, but we need a clear vision of what we need and how we need to get there.