And here's where I disagree with AL...
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Lastly, she wrote that a lack of organized religion was also taking its toll.
Along the same line, lots of places around the developed world have even less of organized religion, yet the USA is the one with the most gun violence. E.g., the people in UK, Germany, France, Sweden, Japan, Australia, even Canada place a lot less emphasis on organized religion in their lives, yet none of them gets even near the level of gun violence in the USA.
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@Jolly said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
She wrote about how the children talked about the shooting games like HALO, and how it seemed like they were addicted to playing them. She wrote that they had to stop playing Red Light/Green Light on the playground, because students would stop running to shoot their playmates and those playmates would fake gruesome death poses on the ground.
She wrote about how she kept suggesting to parents to use age-appropriate games, but the parents kept telling her they could not control their children or that it was just easier at home to let Johnny or Susie just do what they wanted to do.
They've done studies on this. Scads. The most famous one showed that PvP Call of Duty actually forged new friendships between players in Toronto and Detroit, and eliminated animosity that existed prior to playing.
Hundreds of thousands of kids play the everloving shit out of these games and Never, capital N Never, commit violence.
Millions of kids worldwide play the same games, at the same time, against our kids and their countries don't have the gun violence problem ours has.
What this is, you don't like video games. And it all snowballs from there. Because you don't like them, you have decided to find FPSes morally corrupting. And because you've decided all that, might as well slap school shootings to their list of crimes, too.
Some of these "games" are disgusting and ridiculous, that's true. But in the example above, I'm sorry, Halo? Freaking Halo? This is Elvis swinging his hips.
@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
They've done studies on this. Scads. The most famous one showed that PvP Call of Duty actually forged new friendships between players in Toronto and Detroit, and eliminated animosity that existed prior to playing.
There have been thousands of studies on this, and overall they are inconclusive. Some do find links between video games and aggression or violence and others do not. Wikipedia has a list of studies that find such a link and another list of studies that does not. So, everyone can pick the studies (s)he agrees with and the ignore the others.
In my opinion, the studies would need to look different to produce clear results. They would have to preselect the 1% of kids who have a (genetic or environmental) predisposition to aggressiveness and see what influence violent video games have on them.
On one hand, video games are a convenient scape goat. On the other hand, it suggests itself that permanent exposure to virtual violence can change the inner coordinates of a person.
What I observe in my own kids: When they play video games for a long time, they are more aggressive for a couple of hours after they finished. It does not usually lead to violence, but when I imagine other kids from a less stable "background" with much more video game time and much less compensational environment, then I find it plausible that video games can intensify predispositions to violent behavior.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
They've done studies on this. Scads. The most famous one showed that PvP Call of Duty actually forged new friendships between players in Toronto and Detroit, and eliminated animosity that existed prior to playing.
There have been thousands of studies on this, and overall they are inconclusive. Some do find links between video games and aggression or violence and others do not. Wikipedia has a list of studies that find such a link and another list of studies that does not. So, everyone can pick the studies (s)he agrees with and the ignore the others.
In my opinion, the studies would need to look different to produce clear results. They would have to preselect the 1% of kids who have a (genetic or environmental) predisposition to aggressiveness and see what influence violent video games have on them.
On one hand, video games are a convenient scape goat. On the other hand, it suggests itself that permanent exposure to virtual violence can change the inner coordinates of a person.
What I observe in my own kids: When they play video games for a long time, they are more aggressive for a couple of hours after they finished. It does not usually lead to violence, but when I imagine other kids from a less stable "background" with much more video game time and much less compensational environment, then I find it plausible that video games can intensify predispositions to violent behavior.
@Klaus said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
They've done studies on this. Scads. The most famous one showed that PvP Call of Duty actually forged new friendships between players in Toronto and Detroit, and eliminated animosity that existed prior to playing.
There have been thousands of studies on this, and overall they are inconclusive. Some do find links between video games and aggression or violence and others do not. Wikipedia has a list of studies that find such a link and another list of studies that does not. So, everyone can pick the studies (s)he agrees with and the ignore the others.
In my opinion, the studies would need to look different to produce clear results. They would have to preselect the 1% of kids who have a (genetic or environmental) predisposition to aggressiveness and see what influence violent video games have on them.
Do we know that these 1% kids are always the ones who do the shootings?
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When I was a kid, people said exactly the same thing about violent TV shows, and the shows today are way more violent than they were back then, and there's no 9 o'clock watershed - they can watch anything they want, all the time.
So, when we start banning shit we don't like, we clearly shouldn't stop with video games.
My grandad wouldn't have approved either, but then he probably couldn't explain how two world wars started with a total absence of either of these things.
Maybe starting world wars falls under "making our own entertainment", which is apparently what old people used to do before they were old.
I was only joking
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When I was a kid, people said exactly the same thing about violent TV shows, and the shows today are way more violent than they were back then, and there's no 9 o'clock watershed - they can watch anything they want, all the time.
So, when we start banning shit we don't like, we clearly shouldn't stop with video games.
My grandad wouldn't have approved either, but then he probably couldn't explain how two world wars started with a total absence of either of these things.
Maybe starting world wars falls under "making our own entertainment", which is apparently what old people used to do before they were old.
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
When I was a kid, people said exactly the same thing about violent TV shows,
I've a better example: Satanic Panic.
D&D first. Parents and teachers of a certain kind (read: the out-of-touch Christian kind) lost their shit over D&D, thanks in large part to Tom fucking Hanks and Mazes & Monsters.
D&D was fucking radioactive. Get caught with a book, and you had this to look forward to:
- Maving the book confiscated and all your stuff tossed like Andy Dufresne in fucking Shawshank in case you might have more.
- Mandatory trips to the school guidance counselor's office.
- Eternal condemnation from the rest of the school. Congratulations, the gay and the shortbus kids—who had a similarly easier time in school thanks to which group again? Who are we talking about there?—will now have an easier time than you getting a prom date.
After D&D came Magic. Same shit, different game. I had to hide my cards in my fucking socks like a drug addict.
Decades on, how's this workin' out, fundamentalist Christians?
https://gametogrow.org/criticalcore/
I'm not trying to be a dick about this. You can be a fundamentalist Christian and be a great parent, teacher or role model. But you can't be out of touch. When you are, shit like this is the result. Head-in-the-sand histrionics that basically ensure the kids develop some hangups that take decades to untangle.
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“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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So, who said this?@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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So, who said this?I reckon it was someone complaining about those damn boomer kids.
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When I was a kid, people said exactly the same thing about violent TV shows, and the shows today are way more violent than they were back then, and there's no 9 o'clock watershed - they can watch anything they want, all the time.
So, when we start banning shit we don't like, we clearly shouldn't stop with video games.
My grandad wouldn't have approved either, but then he probably couldn't explain how two world wars started with a total absence of either of these things.
Maybe starting world wars falls under "making our own entertainment", which is apparently what old people used to do before they were old.
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
When I was a kid, people said exactly the same thing about violent TV shows, and the shows today are way more violent than they were back then, and there's no 9 o'clock watershed - they can watch anything they want, all the time.
So, when we start banning shit we don't like, we clearly shouldn't stop with video games.
My grandad wouldn't have approved either, but then he probably couldn't explain how two world wars started with a total absence of either of these things.
Maybe starting world wars falls under "making our own entertainment", which is apparently what old people used to do before they were old.
Blood on the Rooftops
Dark and grey, an English film, the Wednesday Play
We always watch the Queen on Christmas Day
Won't you stay?Though your eyes see shipwrecked sailors you're still dry
The outlook's fine though Wales might have some rain
Saved againLet's skip the news boy, I'll make some tea
The Arabs and the Jews boy, too much for me
They get me confused boy, puts me off to sleep
And the thing I hate, oh Lord
Is staying up late, to watch some debate on some nation's fate.Hypnotized by Batman, Tarzan, still surprised
You've won the West in time to be our guest
Name your prizeDrop of wine, glass of beer dear what's the time?
The grime on the Tyne is mine, all mine, all mine
Five past nineBlood on the rooftops, Venice in the Spring
Streets of San Francisco, word from Peking
The trouble was started by a young Errol Flynn
Better in my day, oh Lord
For when we got bored, we'd have a World War, happy but poorSo let's skip the news boy, I'll go make that tea
Blood on the rooftops, too much for me
When old Mother Goose stops and they're out for twenty-three
Then the rain at Lords stopped play
Seems Helen of Troy has found a new face againGenesis 1976
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@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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So, who said this?Adam
@Copper said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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So, who said this?Adam
Close - it was Socrates
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@Copper said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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.
.
So, who said this?Adam
Close - it was Socrates
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Copper said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Doctor-Phibes said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
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So, who said this?Adam
Close - it was Socrates
Did Socrates try asking his students who they want to sit with next week and who they want to nominate as “exceptional citizen of the classroom” each week?
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https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
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https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
@Horace said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
The spirit of the quote still holds true. It's not like kids and older generations lived in perfect harmony, with parents thinking their kids were model citizens and certified Upstanding Young People for centuries prior to boomers.
Please love yourself.
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Here's what I think, after working with crazy people for over thirty years...
- Never assume what is not stimulating to a normal person, doesn't ratchet a crazy person into irrational or bizarre behavior.
- Calm is better. Uncomplicated is better. Stress causes mentally unstable people to act out and a certain percentage can become pretty violent.
- The power of suggestion works pretty well on some. They aren't sure what to believe and if you keep nudging them in a certain direction, some of them have sea changes in attitude and demeanor.
Going back to our guns discussion...
Guns have always been pretty prevalent in American society and culture. We've also had violent periods such as the assassination episodes that Jon pointed out. What has been pretty rare, have been mass shootings by an individual, particularly in schools.
So, society has changed. Period. Full stop.
The question then becomes how and why?
I think the teacher has some decent points and I'll add a few...
- Violent video games are not for young children. Most young children don't have a clue about the finality of death and don't have the background of rural children who are a little familiar with animal slaughter and butchering (although that is becoming rare, too). I think they rewire the mind into a faulty perception of violence and death.
- Speaking of rewiring...Sam Neil said the other day that the new Jurassic Park movie was very different t compared to the original. Modern movie audiences will not tolerate a slow reveal such as the first scene with the T. Rex as in the original. The modern audience demands almost constant action. Their brains are wired for it. Why?
Probably because of the digital age, which causes brain pathways to be rewired, because of constant stimulation. Kids and young people today, do not think the way their grandparents did. - Because of constant stimulation and over-diagnosis, or maybe just the fact we run schools like prisons without recesses and unstructured play, more than 50% of many elementary school students are on psychotropic medications. That is bad. Period. Full stop.
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@Horace said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
The spirit of the quote still holds true. It's not like kids and older generations lived in perfect harmony, with parents thinking their kids were model citizens and certified Upstanding Young People for centuries prior to boomers.
@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Horace said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
The spirit of the quote still holds true. It's not like kids and older generations lived in perfect harmony, with parents thinking their kids were model citizens and certified Upstanding Young People for centuries prior to boomers.
Yep, but they didn't usually walk into the classroom and kill a dozen kids.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Horace said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
The spirit of the quote still holds true. It's not like kids and older generations lived in perfect harmony, with parents thinking their kids were model citizens and certified Upstanding Young People for centuries prior to boomers.
Yep, but they didn't usually walk into the classroom and kill a dozen kids.
@Jolly said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Aqua-Letifer said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
@Horace said in And here's where I disagree with AL...:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehave/
fact checked, into the boards.
The spirit of the quote still holds true. It's not like kids and older generations lived in perfect harmony, with parents thinking their kids were model citizens and certified Upstanding Young People for centuries prior to boomers.
Yep, but they didn't usually walk into the classroom and kill a dozen kids.
See jon's post about social contagion.
