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The New Coffee Room

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  3. An Airfield Too Far

An Airfield Too Far

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  • RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Comparative analysis of failed Arnhem Campaign 1944 and recent Russian attempt to take Antonov Airfield near Kyiv in March:

    https://mwi.usma.edu/an-airfield-too-far-failures-at-market-garden-and-antonov-airfield/

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Away
      MikM Away
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Those who forget the past....

      Interesting piece.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
      • MikM Mik

        Those who forget the past....

        Interesting piece.

        RenaudaR Offline
        RenaudaR Offline
        Renauda
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        @Mik

        I thought so as well. I recommend Beevor’s monograph on Market Garden, The Battle of Arnhem: The Deadliest Airborne Operation of World War II.

        Elbows up!

        1 Reply Last reply
        • Aqua LetiferA Offline
          Aqua LetiferA Offline
          Aqua Letifer
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          @Mik @Renauda Think the risks involved in Market Garden and the low percentage of victory still justified the attempt? Personally, I think so. "Be home by Christmas" and all that. Could've turned the war around a lot faster.

          Please love yourself.

          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
          • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

            @Mik @Renauda Think the risks involved in Market Garden and the low percentage of victory still justified the attempt? Personally, I think so. "Be home by Christmas" and all that. Could've turned the war around a lot faster.

            RenaudaR Offline
            RenaudaR Offline
            Renauda
            wrote on last edited by Renauda
            #5

            @Aqua-Letifer

            I think it was wishful thinking. By beginning of September 1944, the USSR was just beginning to move into occupied Poland and the Red Army supply lines were beginning to over extend. The Nazis while in retreat still had a lot of fight left in them and continued to counter attack whenever possible. Hitler and his inner circle still believed they could hold off both fronts. Having said that though, the invasion of Germany could have taken place earlier but just not at Arnhem but further south and under the command of generals like Devers, Bradley and Patton. Whether the war would have been over by Christmas though remains doubtful given the Nazi apocalyptic mindset.

            I think that Arnhem was ill conceived - the most vociferous opposition to it came from the free Dutch who knew the terrain and understood that the armoured column would be severely limited in its mobility to the existing roads. There is also the failure of the command structure to accept its own intelligence reports regarding the German positions. Much of the blame rests solely on Monty and Boy Brown who pushed through the plan regardless of the information in front of them. It could well have been politics that governed the decision to proceed. If so it would be another example of why politics has no place at the tactical level in war.

            Elbows up!

            Aqua LetiferA MikM 2 Replies Last reply
            • RenaudaR Renauda

              @Aqua-Letifer

              I think it was wishful thinking. By beginning of September 1944, the USSR was just beginning to move into occupied Poland and the Red Army supply lines were beginning to over extend. The Nazis while in retreat still had a lot of fight left in them and continued to counter attack whenever possible. Hitler and his inner circle still believed they could hold off both fronts. Having said that though, the invasion of Germany could have taken place earlier but just not at Arnhem but further south and under the command of generals like Devers, Bradley and Patton. Whether the war would have been over by Christmas though remains doubtful given the Nazi apocalyptic mindset.

              I think that Arnhem was ill conceived - the most vociferous opposition to it came from the free Dutch who knew the terrain and understood that the armoured column would be severely limited in its mobility to the existing roads. There is also the failure of the command structure to accept its own intelligence reports regarding the German positions. Much of the blame rests solely on Monty and Boy Brown who pushed through the plan regardless of the information in front of them. It could well have been politics that governed the decision to proceed. If so it would be another example of why politics has no place at the tactical level in war.

              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on last edited by Aqua Letifer
              #6

              @Renauda said in An Airfield Too Far:

              @Aqua-Letifer

              Much of the blame rests solely on Monty and Boy Brown who pushed through the plan regardless of the information in front of them. It could well have been politics that governed the decision to proceed. If so it would be another example of why politics has no place at the tactical level in war.

              Yeah, I think that's accurate. And yes, the Dutch certainly (and rightly) had their doubts.

              Please love yourself.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RenaudaR Renauda

                @Aqua-Letifer

                I think it was wishful thinking. By beginning of September 1944, the USSR was just beginning to move into occupied Poland and the Red Army supply lines were beginning to over extend. The Nazis while in retreat still had a lot of fight left in them and continued to counter attack whenever possible. Hitler and his inner circle still believed they could hold off both fronts. Having said that though, the invasion of Germany could have taken place earlier but just not at Arnhem but further south and under the command of generals like Devers, Bradley and Patton. Whether the war would have been over by Christmas though remains doubtful given the Nazi apocalyptic mindset.

                I think that Arnhem was ill conceived - the most vociferous opposition to it came from the free Dutch who knew the terrain and understood that the armoured column would be severely limited in its mobility to the existing roads. There is also the failure of the command structure to accept its own intelligence reports regarding the German positions. Much of the blame rests solely on Monty and Boy Brown who pushed through the plan regardless of the information in front of them. It could well have been politics that governed the decision to proceed. If so it would be another example of why politics has no place at the tactical level in war.

                MikM Away
                MikM Away
                Mik
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                @Renauda said in An Airfield Too Far:

                @Aqua-Letifer

                It could well have been politics that governed the decision to proceed. If so it would be another example of why politics has no place at the tactical level in war.

                Amen.

                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

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