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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

    @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

    @George-K

    Until the experts have weighed and a chemical agent or agent are identified nothing is confirmed.

    What do you think will happen if it is confirmed?

    RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by
    #295

    @Aqua-Letifer

    Don’t know other than the big hand moves that much closer to midnight.

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

      @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

      @George-K

      Until the experts have weighed and a chemical agent or agent are identified nothing is confirmed.

      What do you think will happen if it is confirmed?

      MikM Away
      MikM Away
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by
      #296

      @Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:

      @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

      @George-K

      Until the experts have weighed and a chemical agent or agent are identified nothing is confirmed.

      What do you think will happen if it is confirmed?

      Probably nothing military, like in Syria. More sanctions.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      1 Reply Last reply
      • MikM Away
        MikM Away
        Mik
        wrote on last edited by
        #297

        With a Ukrainian marines unit in Donetsk.

        https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/ukraine-war-marines-front-lines-1334770/?fbclid=IwAR0gFNe3O1KwELsLpKCF43HRIvmznNe7c071TT1ue3I4FhHRjPqpkIif4fo

        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

        RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Mik

          With a Ukrainian marines unit in Donetsk.

          https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/ukraine-war-marines-front-lines-1334770/?fbclid=IwAR0gFNe3O1KwELsLpKCF43HRIvmznNe7c071TT1ue3I4FhHRjPqpkIif4fo

          RenaudaR Offline
          RenaudaR Offline
          Renauda
          wrote on last edited by Renauda
          #298

          @Mik

          As your link points out, weight of numbers certainly do not favour the Ukrainians.

          Finally a friendly state and its people are willing to sacrifice their young and old alike in the name of freedom, and we, in the West, find ourselves with all our might, in held check by a despot that has declared war on us all.

          Elbows up!

          MikM 1 Reply Last reply
          • RenaudaR Renauda

            @Mik

            As your link points out, weight of numbers certainly do not favour the Ukrainians.

            Finally a friendly state and its people are willing to sacrifice their young and old alike in the name of freedom, and we, in the West, find ourselves with all our might, in held check by a despot that has declared war on us all.

            MikM Away
            MikM Away
            Mik
            wrote on last edited by
            #299

            @Renauda I cannot help but wonder what would happen if NATO declared Ukraine, Sweden and Finland members and gave the murderous bastard his eviction notice.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

            RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Away
              MikM Away
              Mik
              wrote on last edited by
              #300

              Incidentally, I heard tonight we are going to be giving them helicopters. What, pray tell, is the difference between that and fixed wing aircraft in terms of Russian response?

              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

              Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Mik

                Incidentally, I heard tonight we are going to be giving them helicopters. What, pray tell, is the difference between that and fixed wing aircraft in terms of Russian response?

                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua Letifer
                wrote on last edited by
                #301

                @Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

                Incidentally, I heard tonight we are going to be giving them helicopters. What, pray tell, is the difference between that and fixed wing aircraft in terms of Russian response?

                Biden called it genocide. Macron said he wasn't willing to go that far. Then Biden explicitly doubled down.

                Please love yourself.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • MikM Mik

                  @Renauda I cannot help but wonder what would happen if NATO declared Ukraine, Sweden and Finland members and gave the murderous bastard his eviction notice.

                  RenaudaR Offline
                  RenaudaR Offline
                  Renauda
                  wrote on last edited by Renauda
                  #302

                  @Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:

                  @Renauda I cannot help but wonder what would happen if NATO declared Ukraine, Sweden and Finland members and gave the murderous bastard his eviction notice.

                  Personally, I believe both Finland and Sweden will soon apply for NATO membership. Putin can and will rattle his sword all he wants but it will be a done deal. Putin will bark but won’t bite. Be interesting though if LePen, a Putin groupie, becomes President in France and Putin uses France and his buddy, Viktor Orban in Hungary to try and block their membership. It’s possible, we’ll see.

                  Ukraine is another matter. The time to have brought Ukraine into NATO was during the Bush II Admin prior to Putin’s infamous Munich tirade in 2007 and invasion of Georgia the following year. Throughout the Obama years there was no appetite either in Washington or with the other founding members of the alliance other than possibly the UK to bring in Ukraine. After the annexation of Crimea and subsequent civil war in the Donbas in 2014; Ukrainian aspirations to join NATO were in any case dashed by virtue of the fact there were border regions in dispute with an immediate neighbour. One of the founding conditions of joining NATO is that all border issues with neighbours must be settled and closed.

                  Any direct military action NATO or any of its members take in support of Ukraine risks an all out confrontation with Russia. That confrontation could be limited to conventional weapons. It could also just as easily cross the nuclear threshold.

                  Once that threshold is crossed, our Cold War experience of the last century has taught us that nuclear deterrence has failed and the time has arrived to think about the unthinkable viz. the probability of a strategic nuclear exchange is likely if not certain. That is the price of total war.

                  Elbows up!

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • MikM Away
                    MikM Away
                    Mik
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #303

                    Yes, I get all that. But I still wonder.

                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                    RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Mik

                      Yes, I get all that. But I still wonder.

                      RenaudaR Offline
                      RenaudaR Offline
                      Renauda
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #304

                      @Mik

                      As do I. Still, I do not think that it has really sunk into people’s heads in NATO countries that Putin has already declared war on NATO and the West. He just happens to be taking it out on Ukrainians and on their territory……for now.

                      Elbows up!

                      Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                      • RenaudaR Renauda

                        @Mik

                        As do I. Still, I do not think that it has really sunk into people’s heads in NATO countries that Putin has already declared war on NATO and the West. He just happens to be taking it out on Ukrainians and on their territory……for now.

                        Aqua LetiferA Offline
                        Aqua LetiferA Offline
                        Aqua Letifer
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #305

                        @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                        @Mik

                        As do I. Still, I do not think that it has really sunk into people’s heads in NATO countries that Putin has already declared war on NATO and the West. He just happens to be taking it out on Ukrainians and on their territory……for now.

                        How much steam can he have left, though? Their economy has tanked and they're losing a ton of equipment and weapons in Ukraine.

                        Please love yourself.

                        AxtremusA 1 Reply Last reply
                        • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                          @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @Mik

                          As do I. Still, I do not think that it has really sunk into people’s heads in NATO countries that Putin has already declared war on NATO and the West. He just happens to be taking it out on Ukrainians and on their territory……for now.

                          How much steam can he have left, though? Their economy has tanked and they're losing a ton of equipment and weapons in Ukraine.

                          AxtremusA Away
                          AxtremusA Away
                          Axtremus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #306

                          @Aqua-Letifer said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          How much steam can he have left, though? Their economy has tanked and they're losing a ton of equipment and weapons in Ukraine.

                          Nuclear arsenals, there is no countermeasure but man‘s will to not actually use them.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • AxtremusA Away
                            AxtremusA Away
                            Axtremus
                            wrote on last edited by Axtremus
                            #307

                            https://time.com/6166595/whats-in-bidens-800-million-military-aid-package-for-ukraine/

                            ... the Biden Administration on Wednesday authorized a massive $800-million military aid package to help Kyiv fend off Moscow’s unprovoked invasion.

                            The newly announced assistance includes a wide range of weapon systems for the Ukrainian military designed to help them fight off the superior heavy forces Russia is putting into the field. ...

                            Then there is a long list military hardware the the US will send to Ukraine in that package.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • CopperC Offline
                              CopperC Offline
                              Copper
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #308

                              Massive

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • George KG Offline
                                George KG Offline
                                George K
                                wrote on last edited by George K
                                #309

                                Ukraine says it damaged Russian flagship, crew evacuates

                                Ukraine said its forces struck and seriously damaged the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, dealing a potentially major setback to Moscow’s troops as they try to regroup for a renewed offensive in eastern Ukraine after retreating from much of the north, including the capital.

                                Russia said Thursday the entire crew of the Moskva, a warship that would typically have 500 sailors on board, was forced to evacuate after a fire overnight and also reported it was badly damaged. But it did not acknowledge any attack, which, in addition to any practical impact, would also deal a major blow to Russian prestige seven weeks into a war that is already widely seen as a historic blunder.

                                The damage to the ship came hours after some of Ukraine’s allies sought to rally new support for the embattled country. On a visit with leaders from three other EU countries on Russia’s doorstep who fear they could next be in Moscow’s sights, Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda declared that “the fight for Europe’s future is happening here.”

                                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • George KG Offline
                                  George KG Offline
                                  George K
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #310

                                  More context on the hit on the москва

                                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                                    jon-nycJ Offline
                                    jon-nyc
                                    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                                    #311

                                    David Patraeus and Niall Ferguson. A good read.

                                    Only non-witches get due process.

                                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                    George KG MikM RenaudaR 3 Replies Last reply
                                    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                      David Patraeus and Niall Ferguson. A good read.

                                      George KG Offline
                                      George KG Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #312

                                      @jon-nyc excellent article. Petraeus makes it sound almost hopeful that Ukraine might prevail.

                                      Meanwhile, in Washington:

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                        David Patraeus and Niall Ferguson. A good read.

                                        MikM Away
                                        MikM Away
                                        Mik
                                        wrote on last edited by Mik
                                        #313

                                        @jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                        David Patraeus and Niall Ferguson. A good read.

                                        Very good read. I particularly liked this Petraeus quote:

                                        "The idea of fighting in a country where everyone hates you and will do anything they can to frustrate what you’re trying to achieve is mind-boggling to me. I can’t imagine what it would be like."

                                        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                          David Patraeus and Niall Ferguson. A good read.

                                          RenaudaR Offline
                                          RenaudaR Offline
                                          Renauda
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #314

                                          @jon-nyc

                                          What George and Mik already stated plus Ferguson’s statement:

                                          “ Another aspect of the war that’s interesting to me is that in some ways we’re seeing a familiar battle between an empire and a nation state. And indeed, the war seems to be forging Ukraine as a nation state even as it weakens Russia as an empire.”

                                          Elbows up!

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