Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

[Jolly]

Brain shape has changed in the last 300,000 years, but size has not. The current shape stabilized around 35,000 years ago.

So we're working with basically the same size organ since then.

In sheer, raw intelligence, I think we've been working with the same raw material for at least 20,000 years or more. Men are what they are. Education and training may have changed, but at birth we're no smarter than what we have been bred. Whether it is today, at the time of the Norman Conquest, the height of the Roman Empire, or the builders of Angkor Wat.

[jon-nyc]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

It’s not clear how long the Flynn effect has been happening. It is thought to be a modern phenomenon. Surely the rate at which change has happened in the last decades couldn’t have been happening for hundreds of years or people would have been dumber than dogs 500 years ago.

Also there’s a bit of selection bias in that when you read the ancients you’re likely reading the cream of their intellectual crop.

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

P> > Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum crop is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.

You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

P> > Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.

You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.

I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."

[Jolly]

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

It’s not clear how long the Flynn effect has been happening. It is thought to be a modern phenomenon. Surely the rate at which change has happened in the last decades couldn’t have been happening for hundreds of years or people would have been dumber than dogs 500 years ago.

Also there’s a bit of selection bias in that when you read the ancients you’re likely reading the cream of their intellectual crop.

Probably. But the question is whether their cream is better than our cream? I'm saying at the most basic level, no.

We have more cream as a product of a vast increase in total numbers.

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

P> > Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.

You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.

I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."

Did I say that or is that your inference?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

P> > Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.

You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.

I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."

Did I say that or is that your inference?

I'm paraphrasing, so feel free to correct me, but you've said many times that urban professionals were rubes because they don't appreciate where their food comes from. And you did straightup say my degree was worthless, so, you tell me.

[Jolly]

I do think many urban professionals are of the drone class, creating little in the bigger scheme of things. That has nothing to do with their intelligence, but with their worth to society.

I don't remember saying your degree was worthless, but I'm sure I was right at the time.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

I do think many urban professionals are of the drone class, creating little in the bigger scheme of things. That has nothing to do with their intelligence, but with their worth to society.

I don't remember saying your degree was worthless, but I'm sure I was right at the time.

Thought as much.

[Renauda]

@Aqua-Letifer

I wasn’t aware that you had a degree in theology.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Renauda said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer

I wasn’t aware that you had a degree in theology.

Better'n that my friend! Poetry.

The jokes write themselves. And yes I've already heard 'em.

[Horace]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Renauda said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer

I wasn’t aware that you had a degree in theology.

Better'n that my friend! Poetry.

The jokes write themselves. And yes I've already heard 'em.

What’s the difference between a degree in poetry and a degree in pottery? The degree in poetry can’t afford the extra t.

[Jolly]

I suspect a good potter may eat better and more often than a good poet.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Horace said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Renauda said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer

I wasn’t aware that you had a degree in theology.

Better'n that my friend! Poetry.

The jokes write themselves. And yes I've already heard 'em.

What’s the difference between a degree in poetry and a degree in pottery? The degree in poetry can’t afford the extra t.

It's spelled po' etry.

[Larry]

I call it "educated beyond their intelligence". There are lots of people like that.

I read somewhere that humans are devolving entally.... each generation being a little less intelligent than the previous one - and how the average Roman, Egyptian, etc 4 or 5 000 years ago would make modern day geniuses look silly by comparison. I don't know if there's any truth to that or not.... but I do know that just in my lifetime I've watched as humanity at large went from knowing the difference between a man and a woman to not knowing where to piss.

I think it's unfortunate that urban and rural each have a chip on their shoulder regarding education. Some of it is caused by years of ideologically driven nonsense that purposely has tried to divide us. Rurals think urbans look down their noses at them because they work with their hands, urbans think rurals look down their noses at them because they don't. Sometimes that's exactly what's happening, but not always, and usually not at all once they get beyond being defensive.

Intelligence describes the ability to learn. But you don't have to be intelligent to learn any more than someone with a third grade education means he isn't intelligent. What's lacking today is not intelligence, it's wisdom.

[Jolly]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

I think the limbic system statement bears some thought.

Not to be Victorian, but the intelligent man has no more control over his limbic system than the man of lower intelligence?

[Aqua Letifer]

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:

Intelligence helps you acquire skills.

It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.

And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.

For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."

Wrong.

If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?

No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.

And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.

I think the limbic system statement bears some thought.

Not to be Victorian, but the intelligent man has no more control over his limbic system than the man of lower intelligence?

In the past 20 years or so, they figured out that the limbic system drives and engages our rationality, not the other way around. In other words you emote first because it's a far older (read: faster) process, and you then apply your logic and reasoning under that emotional influence. You can work on your self-awareness to better understand what your limbic system is signaling to you, but there's no such thing as not having emotions during decision-making for anyone whose personality is adequately integrated.

[Jolly]

Everybody has emotions, but it would seem the more intelligent the man, the more control he has over his own actions. Ergo, I think, then I act.