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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Puzzle time - Hazards of Electronic Coin Flipping

Puzzle time - Hazards of Electronic Coin Flipping

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  • KlausK Offline
    KlausK Offline
    Klaus
    wrote on last edited by
    #2

    I have a solution that requires only two coin flips, but it has the small cosmetic disadvantage that I need the probability to be a complex number.

    c8af47a0-ffbb-4bc6-abd0-f00a0c9a5f22-image.png

    1 Reply Last reply
    • KlausK Offline
      KlausK Offline
      Klaus
      wrote on last edited by Klaus
      #3

      I think this algorithm would yield the solution in principle (but is probably too expensive to actually compute):

      Take all 2^10 = 1024 sequences of coin flips. Calculate its probability symbolically (which yields a polynomial of degree 10 in p).

      Now iterate over all possible partitions of the set of sequences of coin flips into three disjoint sets. Compute the symbolic probability of each subset and generate an equation that that probability must be 1/3. Attempt to find a real-valued p that solves the three equations. If that fails, continue with the next possible partition.

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      • AxtremusA Offline
        AxtremusA Offline
        Axtremus
        wrote on last edited by
        #4

        I sort of gave up after getting to a point where it doesn't look like I can find a rational value for p to make it work with a finite number of coin flips. :man-shrugging:

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        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #5

          I have a solution that solves it sometimes but not always.

          Set it to 1/3, use that to select/eliminate one player, then use von Neumann’s algorithm for getting a fair toss from a biased coin to select between the survivors.

          But that can take arbitrarily long so isn’t really a solution.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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          • KlausK Offline
            KlausK Offline
            Klaus
            wrote on last edited by
            #6

            There are standard algorithms to sample from a categorical distribution using a sampler for a binomial distribution, but they all involve changing the p....

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            • jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by
              #7

              I have a solution that needs only four flips.

              I could give a hint but it’s practically a give away.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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              • jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #8

                Can you find p such that p(HHHH or TTTT) = 1/3?

                Or even show that such a p exists?

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                KlausK 1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                  Can you find p such that p(HHHH or TTTT) = 1/3?

                  Or even show that such a p exists?

                  KlausK Offline
                  KlausK Offline
                  Klaus
                  wrote on last edited by Klaus
                  #9

                  Wouldn't that simply be (1/3)^(1/4)? Around 0.7598

                  jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                  • KlausK Klaus

                    Wouldn't that simply be (1/3)^(1/4)? Around 0.7598

                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #10

                    You want to solve p^4 + (1-p)^4 = 1/3, not just p^4 = 1/3.

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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                    • KlausK Offline
                      KlausK Offline
                      Klaus
                      wrote on last edited by Klaus
                      #11

                      Oh, I just see that I messed up the parenthesis and read " p(HHHH or TTTT) = 1/3 " as " p(HHHH) = 1/3 or p(TTTT) = 1/3".

                      Your equation does have two solutions in the real numbers, p = 0.24213 and p=0.75787.

                      The question is whether any subset of the other combinations sums up to 0.5.

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                      • KlausK Offline
                        KlausK Offline
                        Klaus
                        wrote on last edited by Klaus
                        #12

                        Played around a little with your hints.

                        With p as about 0.24213 and 4 tosses, there are 120 out of 65536 possible combinations that are pretty close to 0.5.

                        For instance,
                        HTTT,THHH,THTH,THTT,TTHH,TTHT,TTTH
                        sums up to 0.49969773.

                        I'm not quite sure whether the deviation from 0.5 is due to rounding errors or whether it's actually only close to 0.5.

                        I'm sure there's a better way to do this...

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                          #13

                          As long as we’re using an even power (4 in this case, but 6,8,10 should work if there’s a real solution to the equation that gives 1/3) the symmetry of the remaining flip combinations guarantees they can be split into groups of equal probability. Thus we have multiple solutions that give three equal outcomes, in as few as 4 flips.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • KlausK Offline
                            KlausK Offline
                            Klaus
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #14

                            Oh, right, so you do it all in just 4 flips. Hence the task isn't to generate a p=0.5 flip after a p=1/3 flip (which is what I thought), but to generate three equally likely outcomes. The symmetry argument is nice.

                            Yes, that works.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nycJ Offline
                              jon-nyc
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #15

                              Here’s his Tuesday hint. He seems to be going in a different direction.

                              HINT: No matter what p is, if you flip three times and don't happen to get HHH or TTT, you could use the "odd" flip to choose among Alice, Bob, and Charlie.

                              Only non-witches get due process.

                              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nycJ Offline
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #16

                                SOLUTION: If you could set p twice, two flips would be enough: Set p = 1/3 and on Heads give the widget to Alice, else reset to 1/2 and use the result to decide between Bob and Charlie. Since you can only set p once, it might make sense to try to design a scheme first, then pick p to make the scheme work.

                                For example, you could flip your coin three times and if the flips are not all the same, you could use the "different" flip to decide to whom to award the widget (e.g., "HTT" means Alice gets it). But if you get all heads or all tails, you'll have to do it again, and maybe yet again — so, it might take more than 10 flips.

                                But now suppose we flip the coin four times. There are four ways to get one head, six to get two, four to get three: Even numbers all, so anytime you get non-uniform results you can use the flips to decide between Alice and Bob. If the coin is fair, the remaining probability — that is, the probability q = p4 + (1 - p)4 of "HHHH or TTTT" — is only 1/8, too small for Charlie.

                                As you reduce p, however, q changes continuously and approaches 1. Thus, by the Intermediate Value Theorem, there is some p for which the probability of "HHHH or TTTT" is exactly the 1/3 you need.

                                [The actual value of p works out to 1/2 − sqrt(sqrt(2/3)−3/4), which is about 0.24213069021. The "other root," p = 1 − 0.24213069021, also works. Since these numbers are close to 1/4 and 3/4, you could do a pretty good job with 8 flips of a fair coin; think of each pair of 50-50 flips as one flip of a p-coin, e.g., HH is interpreted as H and HT or TH or TT as T. The result is "fair" between Alice and Bob but gives the widget to Charlie with probability (1/4)4 + (3/4)4 = 0.3203125, a bit short of his just desserts.]

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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