Unconditional Surrender
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Horrible for the Afghans.
But, this also feels like the last chapter in a very sad story for the US military.
What’s been the point of the last 20 years? Imagine you’re a super successful officer that started just before 9/11 and moved up the ranks across theaters.
What have the outcomes been? A destabilized Middle East, with Iran gaining an upper hand. The emergence of a hyper-jihadist terrorist philosophy (ISIS), millions dead, Afghanistan still in the hands of the 9/11 perpetrators. A massive domestic spying operation, built on the back of terrorism fears.
You can be proud that you answered when your country called, but what have we actually achieved?
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Horrible for the Afghans.
But, this also feels like the last chapter in a very sad story for the US military.
What’s been the point of the last 20 years? Imagine you’re a super successful officer that started just before 9/11 and moved up the ranks across theaters.
What have the outcomes been? A destabilized Middle East, with Iran gaining an upper hand. The emergence of a hyper-jihadist terrorist philosophy (ISIS), millions dead, Afghanistan still in the hands of the 9/11 perpetrators. A massive domestic spying operation, built on the back of terrorism fears.
You can be proud that you answered when your country called, but what have we actually achieved?
@xenon said in Unconditional Surrender:
What’s been the point of the last 20 years?
What has been the point?
What have the outcomes been? A destabilized Middle East,
How much did US involvement contribute to that destabilization? Not saying it didn't, of course, but how much of a simmering pot was the Middle East before Israel moved in? How much did the US-Israel alliance contribute, and how has each country in the region been separately affected? Egypt vs. Jordan, for instance. What role has Russia played? How was each country changed? What was the path that led to Bin Laden? How well understood is that?
A massive domestic spying operation, built on the back of terrorism fears.
How much of a deterrent has it been? How much of a deterrent can it have been if its every action is common knowledge? If we don't see overt results, does that mean it's a boondoggle? Or that it has been doing its job? How is it possible to ever untangle that answer?
Like all roads leading to Rome, many roads led to Afghanistan. I don't pretend to have an understanding of it all, but it is a massive entanglement with many strands that would take a lot of study to get a grip on.
It is to oversimplify to ask what good was it all.
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@catseye3 the frame of the question is - if you were a successful US soldier in the Middle Eastern theaters over the last 20 years, how would you characterize what your efforts helped accomplish?
What did you fight for? Did you achieve it, or some part of it?
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@catseye3 the frame of the question is - if you were a successful US soldier in the Middle Eastern theaters over the last 20 years, how would you characterize what your efforts helped accomplish?
What did you fight for? Did you achieve it, or some part of it?
@xenon said in Unconditional Surrender:
What did you fight for? Did you achieve it, or some part of it?
Wow. I don't know. How can you reliably determine what would have happened if you hadn't been there, if you hadn't done any one of a thousand acts in your career?
I'm not being cute. I really don't know how to answer that.
If you polled every Middle East veteran in the country with that question, what would be the result? Would any one answer stand out? Tragic waste of blood and treasure? Would have been worse if we hadn't done such-and-such? Made no difference, the outcome was in the stars? I survived, but my sons didn't, so what do you think?
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@xenon said in Unconditional Surrender:
What did you fight for? Did you achieve it, or some part of it?
Wow. I don't know. How can you reliably determine what would have happened if you hadn't been there, if you hadn't done any one of a thousand acts in your career?
I'm not being cute. I really don't know how to answer that.
If you polled every Middle East veteran in the country with that question, what would be the result? Would any one answer stand out? Tragic waste of blood and treasure? Would have been worse if we hadn't done such-and-such? Made no difference, the outcome was in the stars? I survived, but my sons didn't, so what do you think?
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@catseye3 It’s not straightforward, but the narrative we land on matters if we face similar situations in the future.
@xenon Maybe, maybe not. We don't seem to do too well with learning the lessons of history.
But I take your point. It's always better to have a plan. The questions Loki asked yesterday or the day before need to be key in any future decisions of this kind.
ETA: It wasn't Loki, it was Kluurs. He wrote, "It has implications far beyond the middle east. How do we all get along with such divergent ideas of what the world should look like - and how it should work? Who should lead and to what destination?"
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You know, there was one MAJOR accomplishment... For the last 20 years, most of the fighting has been over there and not in Manhattan...That's been kind of nice.
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You know, there was one MAJOR accomplishment... For the last 20 years, most of the fighting has been over there and not in Manhattan...That's been kind of nice.
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@lufins-dad interesting perspective. Question is - is Manhattan more or less safe, now that we’re not there anymore? Should we continue to be there?
@xenon said in Unconditional Surrender:
@lufins-dad interesting perspective. Question is - is Manhattan more or less safe, now that we’re not there anymore? Should we continue to be there?
Good question.
Let's revisit that in about 10 years.
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“An open and inclusive Islamic government” what a fucking joke.
