Blowback?
-
A more compelling argument would be to demonstrate how the Jan 6 folks are being treated differently than others charged with federal crimes.
Attacking a federal courthouse is a federal crime:
https://policetribune.com/7-portland-antifa-rioters-arrested-on-federal-charges/
7 Portland Antifa Rioters Arrested On Federal Charges
Seven rioters accused of assaulting officers and defacing a federal courthouse are facing federal charges in Portland, the U.S. Attorney Billy Williams announced on Tuesday.
All seven were released from jail after their first court appearances on July 6, KGW reported.
Riot on Thursday (7/2/20).
Arrested on Thursday.
Released (pending trial) on Monday (7/6/20).Original trial was 9/29/20 and continued to 1/5/21.
I can't find what happened after that.
-
From the article: "In dozens of pre-trial detention motions filed by Joe Biden’s Justice Department, the evidence against January 6 defendants rests solely in the hands of the government."
Well, yeah. Duh.
"Detention hearings act instead almost as ex-parte criminal trials where federal judges in Washington, D.C. declare guilt or innocence based largely on what federal prosecutors present in court, occasionally sending defendants to jail for months before a trial can begin."
Anyone who knows anything about how the so-called justice system operates in America knows that it is greatly over crowded and under resourced everywhere. Pretrial motions and pretrial appearances of all kinds are more like a cattle call -- defendants' petitions, motions, and et cetera are often presented by public defenders who never laid eyes on the subject until one minute before addressing the court. They have just enough time to quickly scan the file and based on their experience, make the best decision they can on the fly. It is a mess -- and its messiness has probably long since transcended political influence. Not Trump's fault and not Biden's fault. Probably not even Hoover's fault. It's not so much sinister as it is out of control because overcrowding and poor administration and, of course, the cursed lawyers.
Bear in mind also that just because the accused are lionized in the press does not mean they're treated the same way in the system. In there, they're defendants just like everyone else.
But make your hay with it, by all means.
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
-
@aqua-letifer said in Blowback?:
Attacking a federal courthouse is a federal crime:
A federal courthouse is not the capitol, and you have a very long way to go to prove the existence of a political conspiracy that stretches from DC jails to Portland jails.
I asked the question and George responded. But you do have a point.
Also we would want to know how these Portland folks were treated, all 74 of them.
-
@aqua-letifer said in Blowback?:
Attacking a federal courthouse is a federal crime:
A federal courthouse is not the capitol, and you have a very long way to go to prove the existence of a political conspiracy that stretches from DC jails to Portland jails.
I asked the question and George responded. But you do have a point.
Also we would want to know how these Portland folks were treated, all 74 of them.
Also we would want to know how these Portland folks were treated, all 74 of them.
True.
How many of them are in solitary?
How many haven't seen their attorneys?
How many of said attorneys haven't seen the evidence?I don't presume to know about the situation in Portland.
But I'll venture a guess: none.
In there, they're defendants just like everyone else.
See my response above.
ETA: About half the arrested Antifa rioters have had charges dropped.
-
From the article: "In dozens of pre-trial detention motions filed by Joe Biden’s Justice Department, the evidence against January 6 defendants rests solely in the hands of the government."
Well, yeah. Duh.
"Detention hearings act instead almost as ex-parte criminal trials where federal judges in Washington, D.C. declare guilt or innocence based largely on what federal prosecutors present in court, occasionally sending defendants to jail for months before a trial can begin."
Anyone who knows anything about how the so-called justice system operates in America knows that it is greatly over crowded and under resourced everywhere. Pretrial motions and pretrial appearances of all kinds are more like a cattle call -- defendants' petitions, motions, and et cetera are often presented by public defenders who never laid eyes on the subject until one minute before addressing the court. They have just enough time to quickly scan the file and based on their experience, make the best decision they can on the fly. It is a mess -- and its messiness has probably long since transcended political influence. Not Trump's fault and not Biden's fault. Probably not even Hoover's fault. It's not so much sinister as it is out of control because overcrowding and poor administration and, of course, the cursed lawyers.
Bear in mind also that just because the accused are lionized in the press does not mean they're treated the same way in the system. In there, they're defendants just like everyone else.
But make your hay with it, by all means.
From the article: "In dozens of pre-trial detention motions filed by Joe Biden’s Justice Department, the evidence against January 6 defendants rests solely in the hands of the government."
Well, yeah. Duh.
"Detention hearings act instead almost as ex-parte criminal trials where federal judges in Washington, D.C. declare guilt or innocence based largely on what federal prosecutors present in court, occasionally sending defendants to jail for months before a trial can begin."
Anyone who knows anything about how the so-called justice system operates in America knows that it is greatly over crowded and under resourced everywhere. Pretrial motions and pretrial appearances of all kinds are more like a cattle call -- defendants' petitions, motions, and et cetera are often presented by public defenders who never laid eyes on the subject until one minute before addressing the court. They have just enough time to quickly scan the file and based on their experience, make the best decision they can on the fly. It is a mess -- and its messiness has probably long since transcended political influence. Not Trump's fault and not Biden's fault. Probably not even Hoover's fault. It's not so much sinister as it is out of control because overcrowding and poor administration and, of course, the cursed lawyers.
Bear in mind also that just because the accused are lionized in the press does not mean they're treated the same way in the system. In there, they're defendants just like everyone else.
But make your hay with it, by all means.
I don't know what kind of justice system they have where you live, but in most of America, crowded or not, misdemeanors are arraigned on the next court business day, bail is granted, and the court date is set or not, depending on the court calendar and resources.
Misdemeanor, by definition, is a crime punishable by not more than one year in prison and/or a stipulated fine. If you read the article, you will note that the first date the defense attorneys will see the prosecutorial evidence is 1.22.22 That is unheard of. It is unconstitutional. The prosecution is not even allowing defense attorneys to see evidence until after the normal sentence for the crime. A citizen has the right to a fair and speedy trial. Now, we can argue what "fair and speedy" constitutes, but no Founding Father, drunk on his 18th century ass, would label over a year for a misdemeanor charge as fair and speedy.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
-
@aqua-letifer said in Blowback?:
A federal courthouse is not the capitol,
No, but both ae Federal buildings and the same law applies to both.
Or, do we just make up shit as we go along?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
-
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
At least 70% of people charged in the Capitol riot have been released as they wait for trial, according to a Guardian analysis.
That high pre-trial release rate stands in stark contrast with the usual detention rates in the federal system, where only 25% of defendants nationwide are typically released before their trial.
-
From the article: "In dozens of pre-trial detention motions filed by Joe Biden’s Justice Department, the evidence against January 6 defendants rests solely in the hands of the government."
Well, yeah. Duh.
"Detention hearings act instead almost as ex-parte criminal trials where federal judges in Washington, D.C. declare guilt or innocence based largely on what federal prosecutors present in court, occasionally sending defendants to jail for months before a trial can begin."
Anyone who knows anything about how the so-called justice system operates in America knows that it is greatly over crowded and under resourced everywhere. Pretrial motions and pretrial appearances of all kinds are more like a cattle call -- defendants' petitions, motions, and et cetera are often presented by public defenders who never laid eyes on the subject until one minute before addressing the court. They have just enough time to quickly scan the file and based on their experience, make the best decision they can on the fly. It is a mess -- and its messiness has probably long since transcended political influence. Not Trump's fault and not Biden's fault. Probably not even Hoover's fault. It's not so much sinister as it is out of control because overcrowding and poor administration and, of course, the cursed lawyers.
Bear in mind also that just because the accused are lionized in the press does not mean they're treated the same way in the system. In there, they're defendants just like everyone else.
But make your hay with it, by all means.
I don't know what kind of justice system they have where you live, but in most of America, crowded or not, misdemeanors are arraigned on the next court business day, bail is granted, and the court date is set or not, depending on the court calendar and resources.
Misdemeanor, by definition, is a crime punishable by not more than one year in prison and/or a stipulated fine. If you read the article, you will note that the first date the defense attorneys will see the prosecutorial evidence is 1.22.22 That is unheard of. It is unconstitutional. The prosecution is not even allowing defense attorneys to see evidence until after the normal sentence for the crime. A citizen has the right to a fair and speedy trial. Now, we can argue what "fair and speedy" constitutes, but no Founding Father, drunk on his 18th century ass, would label over a year for a misdemeanor charge as fair and speedy.
I don't know what kind of justice system they have where you live, but in most of America, crowded or not, misdemeanors are arraigned on the next court business day, bail is granted, and the court date is set or not, depending on the court calendar and resources.
Sure, all nice and neat. What about when 1) there's no time left in the "next court business day" or 2) the defendant fails to appear or 3) the defendant is arrested on another charge while out on bail or 4) his publicly appointed lawyer's schedule is filled up on the "next business day"? Or the defendant shows up stoned because a guard slipped him something, and he's adjudged unable to stand for his own defense? Shall I go on?
Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka
-
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
At least 70% of people charged in the Capitol riot have been released as they wait for trial, according to a Guardian analysis.
That high pre-trial release rate stands in stark contrast with the usual detention rates in the federal system, where only 25% of defendants nationwide are typically released before their trial.
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
Thanks for that.
Thomas Webster, was kept alone in his cell for 23 hours a day until being released June 30 to home detention. He was prevented from getting court papers and a computer thumb drive his lawyers mailed him, according to a court filing by his lawyer. Webster, whose charges also include assaulting, resisting or impeding officers using a dangerous weapon, was arrested Feb. 22.
The vast majority of defendants have been released from custody while awaiting trial, but some held in jail have been kept in solitary confinement.
Why?
-
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
Thanks for that.
Thomas Webster, was kept alone in his cell for 23 hours a day until being released June 30 to home detention. He was prevented from getting court papers and a computer thumb drive his lawyers mailed him, according to a court filing by his lawyer. Webster, whose charges also include assaulting, resisting or impeding officers using a dangerous weapon, was arrested Feb. 22.
The vast majority of defendants have been released from custody while awaiting trial, but some held in jail have been kept in solitary confinement.
Why?
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
Thanks for that.
Thomas Webster, was kept alone in his cell for 23 hours a day until being released June 30 to home detention. He was prevented from getting court papers and a computer thumb drive his lawyers mailed him, according to a court filing by his lawyer. Webster, whose charges also include assaulting, resisting or impeding officers using a dangerous weapon, was arrested Feb. 22.
The vast majority of defendants have been released from custody while awaiting trial, but some held in jail have been kept in solitary confinement.
Why?
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
Don’t name names. It gets ugly fast.
-
And then there is this truth.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/28/us-capitol-attack-suspects-jail-trial
Rebuttal?
Thanks for that.
Thomas Webster, was kept alone in his cell for 23 hours a day until being released June 30 to home detention. He was prevented from getting court papers and a computer thumb drive his lawyers mailed him, according to a court filing by his lawyer. Webster, whose charges also include assaulting, resisting or impeding officers using a dangerous weapon, was arrested Feb. 22.
The vast majority of defendants have been released from custody while awaiting trial, but some held in jail have been kept in solitary confinement.
Why?
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
Don’t name names. It gets ugly fast.
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
-
@aqua-letifer said in Blowback?:
A federal courthouse is not the capitol,
No, but both ae Federal buildings and the same law applies to both.
Or, do we just make up shit as we go along?
@aqua-letifer said in Blowback?:
A federal courthouse is not the capitol,
No, but both ae Federal buildings and the same law applies to both.
The law applies to both. But cherry-picking laws isn't going to make both examples identical.
Or, do we just make up shit as we go along?
I don't think you're wrong, I just don't see what there is to be overly concerned about. Further, part of the problem is inefficient processing but no one seems concerned about that.
-
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
I have no idea. I am done until someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different. 70% already free vs the national average was enough for me to understand Jolly’s article was very selective and missed so much of the overall narrative.
I am very open to new evidence to the contrary.
-
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
I have no idea. I am done until someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different. 70% already free vs the national average was enough for me to understand Jolly’s article was very selective and missed so much of the overall narrative.
I am very open to new evidence to the contrary.
someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different.
I did that. Rioters in Portland who set fire to a federal courthouse were detained for three days before being released awaiting trial. Other charges included assaulting police, use of lasers, etc.
You're going by statistics, I'm going by individuals, all of whom were, arguably worse than the Jan 6 idiots. Look at the charges.
-
someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different.
I did that. Rioters in Portland who set fire to a federal courthouse were detained for three days before being released awaiting trial. Other charges included assaulting police, use of lasers, etc.
You're going by statistics, I'm going by individuals, all of whom were, arguably worse than the Jan 6 idiots. Look at the charges.
someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different.
I did that. Rioters in Portland who set fire to a federal courthouse were detained for three days before being released awaiting trial. Other charges included assaulting police, use of lasers, etc.
You're going by statistics, I'm going by individuals, all of whom were, arguably worse than the Jan 6 idiots. Look at the charges.
Aqua says they are not the same. But setting that aside for the moment there is the opposite argument that whites get so much better treatment at protests than blacks or BLM or Antifa.
-
@loki said:
Aqua says they are not the same.
Is the capitol building "more valuable" than a federal courthouse in Portland?
I'd love to see the law on that.
-
@loki said:
Aqua says they are not the same.
Is the capitol building "more valuable" than a federal courthouse in Portland?
I'd love to see the law on that.
-
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
I have no idea. I am done until someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different. 70% already free vs the national average was enough for me to understand Jolly’s article was very selective and missed so much of the overall narrative.
I am very open to new evidence to the contrary.
You mean the video evidence of the former police officer (Webster) with a flagpole assaulting a police officer and then while having him pinned on the ground appearing to try and gouge his eye out?
I haven't seen that video, and I'm not claiming he's innocent.
How many prisoners charged (not convicted) with aggravated assault are in solitary?
I have no idea. I am done until someone demonstrates to me that the treatment of Jan 6 is different. 70% already free vs the national average was enough for me to understand Jolly’s article was very selective and missed so much of the overall narrative.
I am very open to new evidence to the contrary.
Are you ignoring the word misdemeanor?
-
I don't know what kind of justice system they have where you live, but in most of America, crowded or not, misdemeanors are arraigned on the next court business day, bail is granted, and the court date is set or not, depending on the court calendar and resources.
Sure, all nice and neat. What about when 1) there's no time left in the "next court business day" or 2) the defendant fails to appear or 3) the defendant is arrested on another charge while out on bail or 4) his publicly appointed lawyer's schedule is filled up on the "next business day"? Or the defendant shows up stoned because a guard slipped him something, and he's adjudged unable to stand for his own defense? Shall I go on?
I don't know what kind of justice system they have where you live, but in most of America, crowded or not, misdemeanors are arraigned on the next court business day, bail is granted, and the court date is set or not, depending on the court calendar and resources.
Sure, all nice and neat. What about when 1) there's no time left in the "next court business day" or 2) the defendant fails to appear or 3) the defendant is arrested on another charge while out on bail or 4) his publicly appointed lawyer's schedule is filled up on the "next business day"? Or the defendant shows up stoned because a guard slipped him something, and he's adjudged unable to stand for his own defense? Shall I go on?
- Misdemeanors are blown through like shit through a goose. If you've ever propped your feet up in court, you know that. I will give you the fact that the Feds are pissed, but this has been handled like a vendetta, not justice
- These defendents are in solitary confinement and many have been confined for many months. It is rather hard to skip bail when they won't give it to you. Do you think the person cited in the article is a flight risk?
- The rest of your argument pegs the silly-ass meter out and has very little to do with this discussion.
